www.mountainz.co.nz

My intel is that they are rockclimbing over in Aussie and have shut down their internet forum to protect themselves and their online business from the badass riffraff that frequents online climbing forums.

I was saddened when F and G chose to close down Mountainz as I thought it provided a focal point for Mountaineering that was lacking in NZ

I expect when Mojozone is incorporated more into the NZAC fold it will hopefully provide many areas that were well provided for by Mountainz also.

Perhaps the Mountaineering fraternity would like to suggest things that they would like to see?

A bit immature to shut down a forum because a couple of retired climbers are thankless and rude I think. There was a lot of useful information in the forum but it can still be googled (cached, will not last forever).  In my experience the quality of a forum depends on the users and as far as I can tell most of the users from mountainz.co.nz are also on mojozone.co.nz.

The content of a forum is made up by the users and therefore I do not think it matters much if the forum is hosted by a high profile organisation or a gear importer. In my opinion mountainz.co.nz was poorly moderated, unfortunately, and this has an effect on who bother contributing and who don't.

Defending this side or that side. Theres no winners...Lets talk climbing, and let sleeping dogs lie

We are talking Mountainz - I believe we are talking climbing.  Given that Mountainz has closed very recently, it's hardly a sleeping dog yet.  I am also in camp hopeful that it may be revived - due to its importance to me as a mountaineering resource.  So unless I am contravening any Mojozone Forum Rules (sbaclimber, I will owe you a cup of tea for sipping on if so? ;-) ...

Damien/Jam/En - Censure of Francesca and Glenn for closing the forum because they were being hassled is unfair.  I don't see how this makes them "immature" or how it reflects badly on them - they did not owe anyone a mountaineering resource or a forum - it was a volunteer-run website provided by people passionate about mountaineering. 

There were also other reasons for closing the forum, but I don't think constant abusive, ungrateful postings and correspondence (generated by the presence of Mountainz) made them feel particularly altruistic.

I would not put up with people saying abusive remarks to me and I'm sure none of you would either.  Saying that certain remarks are ok because climbers are not models of decorum - or because it comes with the territory - doesn't actually render endlessly hearing such remarks a pleasant experience, believe it or not.

As for Francesca discussing "personal" things on Mountainz.  Good on her for confronting - and shutting down - a very distressing false rumour that was being fed widely around the climbing community.  Hardly a 'personal' matter.  I also believe this was in response to a grotesque forum post telling her to get breast reductions when she offered some advice on female climbing attire. 

On a separate note, I've been informed that Francesca never moderated Mountainz - she was in charge of content production - and is also not involved in iclimb.  I say this to correct anything I have said (or other people have said) in error. 

A final point - apolitical may have been the wrong choice of word.  Everyone has their own political views.  What I meant is that Francesca and Glenn did not have to operate under the constraints that an organisation has to.  I believe this independence promoted the free flow of information on more controversial topics.

Kester - I am happy to provide feedback, but will do so another time as this is just a quick post (ok longish but it was typed quickly! :-).

Just two points:

- I am sure you do not care about comments made off the forum - I was simply pointing out that users did not limit their comments to the forum and also provided them privately.  The relevance is simply that this is part of the context of the decision to close Mountainz - it was Mountainz-generated.

- something is hardly personal when a climbing community - and a whole group of people you don't know- is/are talking about it.  Perhaps the users of UKC and Summitpost don't feel the need to start vicious and untrue rumours about the sexual behaviour of female content owners on those sites - if there are any.

Mountainz was a great resource, it is sad that it has gone, and sader still the reasons why it was shut down. I was not personaly involved in any of the discusions, here or on Mountainz, that Glenn and Francessca found demeaning and abusive, so I have no comment on them. Howerver, I personally know Glenn and Francessca well, and know they have been having trouble dealing with some of the unfriendly comments and discussions generated within the climbing community, both on Mountainz, Mojozone and verbal rumours.

Within any group of people there are bound to be differences in opinion and personalities, and we need to acknoweldge these and use them to learn from each other, instead of bringing each other down. In general I find the NZ climbing community fantastically supportive, but hey, we can all show a little bit more empathy and love some times :) 

So I think the lesson we can all learn from this is to think about what we say about and to people and how it will affect them before we publish it on a community site or start spreading rumours.

As the Dalai Lama says, since we are all going to die, we are all in the same perilous situation - like prisoners about to be exectuted - so there is no point in quarreling and fighting or spreading gossip. The only thing worth doing is expressing love :)

Hi Kester and JP

I can probably reply to both your posts at the same time.

I will clarify now that I am not criticising hard climbing being a key focus of Climber.  I agree that Climber should showcase the current top standards in bouldering, rock, and alpine climbing and that people can celebrate the successes of the top (and other good) climbers, and some will also be inspired by them to achieve a higher level of technical mastery.  Non hard-core types like me can still appreciate great photos of and articles about highly skilled people.

BUT

Put simply, I'd love to hear about some climbs that I could actually get up myself. 

I’m not sure if I have ever read about a grade 1 or 2 climb in Climber since I joined the NZAC (in 2008), though I would stand happily corrected if I’m wrong – I’d go back and read it.  I think people aren’t likely to send in what they never see featured; they would be more likely to submit these stories to Wilderness. And I know - and meet while climbing - a lot of people who are climbing at this level and who are in the Alpine Club.

I do not have any issues of Climber handy to return the analysis – they’re currently 40km away from me - but I am sure anyone reading this discussion will have their own impression of the extent to which Climber covers easy climbing or tramping.  I will say that grade 23 trad and the ilk may as well be cutting edge for me and that the easy climbing audience should not be equated to one for overseas photo spreads and articles on nutrition and gear.   I read those articles – but they don't reduce my desire to read about trips and experiences to which I can relate.

I’ve bought Wilderness for a single article on Rob Roy – and another time for a single article on multiple ways to cross on the Southern Alps – then recently because the feature story was about women in the outdoors, even if it did lack introspection and have a cliched angle (girl power).

If Climber is potentially interested in (well written) stories about, say, cragging under grade 20 or climbs in the grade 1-3 ballpark, or the experiences of and challenges faced by these climbers, then perhaps indicate you are open to receiving such submissions in the next edition of Climber.  Have you ever undertaken a readership survey asking what level readers are generally climbing at or what they are interested in reading about, to gauge what sort of articles will interest people, including readers being able to put those climbs on their holiday wish lists? 

I know that Climber has, in the past (maybe 2006), featured some articles by Francesca about climbs on the Nun's Veil and Rolleston.  As a journalist and excellent writer (infinitely superior to me) she would be a better person than me to ask specifically for contributions.  Prior to the closure of Mountainz I saw some of her ideas about articles for people like me - they were fantastic and I hope they are published in another forum, if not Mountainz. 

Hi Graham

There are no examples of grade 1 and 2 mountaineering there that I can see.  I do not know the grade either, but Fraser's grads climbed a grade 3- route on their post-AIC expedition prior to that trip - they are great people and good climbers.  I enjoyed reading about their success.  As well as being an excellent writer, Fraser is an inspiring leader and I am not surprised he was invited to write for Mountainz.  Three years after doing my own AIC, I am keen to have a go at the route his grads were able to climb as soon as they finished their AIC.  His encouragement has helped to boost my confidence to do so.

I am not really sure why I tried to present my point of view on this matter here - although I guess this has stemmed from my suggestion that the content on Mountainz was more relevant to me, despite the fact (or rather, because) Mountainz was able to write for a wide range of people, which I agree is a difficult task.  I feel people like me have lost out, particularly, with its closure.  I did not really expect anyone to be receptive of the suggestion that there is an audience who would like to see articles about easy climbing - or that these would be anything other than boring - or that easy meant something hard.  Better perhaps to stay off forums and put the time toward climbing.

I will caveat the following statement by saying that I know that 25% of the Alpine Club's membership are female climbers and there are cutting edge climbers who are female - and females have different levels of ability and interests.  But if easy alpine climbing on here is a new trad route on Tasman, I'm not  surprised that most of the female climbers I know (make a link here to my limited climbing ability if you need to) are members of tramping clubs and not the Alpine Club.  The last alpine trip I did with my tramping club was to Mount Hopeless and there were 6 females on the trip and 5 males, and on the last cragging trip, 4 gals and 1 guy.  I do not know their reasons for not joining the Alpine Club, but I do know that they find the climbing groups in their tramping clubs, a welcoming environment.

Anything that stops contributors of articles to Mountainz from re-posting them here?

Rainjay, you’re feedback on Climber/NZAJ content is welcome and very helpful. Thank you.

A few points in response:

- The NZAC regularly surveys its members seeking information on who they are, what they do and what they like. That information is used (amongst other things) to inform editorial/content direction for The Climber and NZAJ.

- You started with the statement that the Climber and NZAJ do not cater for the “wider readership”. That is strong criticism, especially given Kester’s focus on creating a magazine that has something for everyone. In my view, based on the summary of content in my post above and Graham’s summary, it is also unfair criticism. That said, you have fairly identified a lack of focus on tramping and grade 1 alpine routes in recent issues. On that, I think Travis H makes a good point - it is not really the core focus for a magazine such as The Climber. However, as it happens, I'm reasonably confident that Kester has been publicly seeking such content (on the Climber facebook page) for some time – but nobody has taken up the challenge. Perhaps you might?

- Climber and NZAJ content is not ‘commissioned only’. Kester does pester people for content but gladly receives unsolicited material from anyone. He (of course) will vet it for quality, accuracy, relevance etc, he may even suggest changes/improvements, but that shouldn’t stop you or anyone else from submitting material (or encouraging others to submit material) to him for consideration. Bring it on!

- Last but not least, I'd think the articles on mountainz could be easily incorporated into this site. Just a matter of those with publications rights for that material offering it up.

I reckon "destination" type articles are good way of catering for all or at least larger groups. Eg you could do an article on Mt Arapiles and cover all grades/abilities. Maybe you do a similar thing on alpine climbing around Chamonix.

Articles on Grade 1&2 alpine climbs I reckon need to be very well written or have some unique angle. I think they can be worthwhile if they are well written.

However I reckon on the whole people are aspirational to the elite. No one really wants to read about when I played in the 7th form social rugby team in rugby mags they want to read about the All Blacks. They may be realistic enough (like most of us) to realise we will never be able to an elite climber or an All Black but it doesn't stop us dreaming/desiring. Why do books by elite climbers sell so well, even amongst non climbers.

Hey, I did not say that easy climbing should be a core focus of Climber or even a focus.  I would just like to see some climbing that is relevant to me – grade 1 and 2 mountaineering.  Nothing on this thread has changed that. 

Perhaps go easy on the word tramp, I was thinking of trans-alpine tramps (like the Southern Alps article I mentioned) which often involve the same skills as said easy mountaineering (or are harder) … I wasn’t thinking of a stroll around Butterfly Creek or even a Carkeek Picnic in winter, after the “snowfall of our lifetime”, and with an accidental diversion over the Waiohine Pinnacles in a white out (hey it happens – and to people who are then too scared to cross back)  Though I would get a copy of Wilderness to read about that.

Anyway, perhaps the ultimate response is that such climbing is too easy to feature in Climber – or unappealing – we are not convinced, now submit if you dare. 

I don’t think my comment is unfair because there are a lot of Alpine Club members climbing in this ballpark, who I’m sure would really enjoy an article on these sorts of climbs.  If you’re aware from your readership surveys that I’m mistaken, then enlighten me.  A suggestion that these trips don’t have any place – at least anymore – in Climber, would alienate me.  And yes, I certainly have bought books by experts – people like the late Karen McNeill fully inspire me to be a better human being as well as climber.  But I also feel inspired by a person who writes a very good article, taking a striking angle, about something that challenged them, even if it was not hard climbing.

I haven’t been surveyed myself but would happily fill out a survey if it came my way and pass it on to other Alpine Club members if this were helpful?

Nice one Jeezer, I'm an expert on trying to wriggle out of anything tricky - hey if we just dropped off the ridge and siddled under the tricky bit ...  

The Mountainz articles won’t disappear – they will be archived and made available for the interested.  But I am sad that nothing new will be coming from that quarter for the time being.

I have been involved enough over the years with a variety of publications about climbing and I guess particularly NZAC Publications.

My view is that, as John mentioned, while we do encourage people to write and contribute it is they that do. These are your publications and rely on you (the reader) contributing. It's also up to you to encourage those that have done trips or climbs you have heard about or been on to share that. People need to be prodded sometimes.

Kester and other editors do not know everything that is happening out there. Please encourage people to contribute.

Potentially things that don't make it into the mags may end up on teh Climber web version - who knows.

I would certainly like to see some of the past articles eg Biographies up there to re read wihout having to dig through my stack of mags.

I also don't want to see out publications buying in stuff from overseas and head down teh path Adventure magazine has travelled.

well perhaps the lesson is that people should  'get over themselves' and just either go and do it (whatever 'it ' or fetish you enjoy) and be happy, or do it and write about it as well ... jesus quit whining about how hard you do or dont climb... wheteher your male, female.. asexual, trisexual, vegetarian, buhddist, sport, alpine, trad blah blah ...who cares (other then you?)... as TR says 'write about your experience' ...how did it FEEEL 

it dosnt matter what level you climb , all climbers get to the same point eventually ... to go, or not to go, commit or back off, go for it or retreat, whether thats on a grade 12 or a 32 or M10, Mt Cook 1 or 6+ the feel is much the same

and maybe thats why the best mountain writing is not about what was climbed but how the experience affected the climber, the affect is a unique and powerful experience and the best writing manges to capture a sense of that experience

Climber is a very welcome intrusion into my mailbox, thanks team, but I look for the good stuff hidden between the grades 

First and foremost, we look to magazines for inspiration and idol worship. Bless those people who are pushing the limits and then publishing their exploits for self-aggrandisement.

Yes, we enjoy the gear review and other editorial around the sport but don't fool yourself. No one wants to see or read about balding forty somethings sending routes or climbing mountains that are pedestrian and boring. We want to read about epics, tall tales, smashed thumbs, frozen wet sleeping bags. Above all, we want to read about feats that test human strength, endurance, will power and especially courage.