Why we go (alpine?) climbing
15 March 2010 - 10:50pm
When the human being considered it necessary to make a memory for himself, it never happened without blood, martyrs, and sacrifices, the most terrible sacrifices and pledges (among them the sacrifice of the first born), the most repulsive self-mutilations (for example, castration), the cruelest forms of ritual in all the religious cults (and all religions are in their deepest foundations systems of cruelty)
– Friedrich Nietzsche, Guilt, Bad Conscience, and Related Matters
Discuss...
16 March 2010 - 8:35am
#2
Firstly, and I'm trying not to go too far off track here... I see power and love as opposite motives, power is inward seeking, love is outward seeking. Power controls and binds, Love (strength under control) actually gives choice and sets free - it's often a sacrifice of power, a giving up of one's "right" for another. The ironic thing about religion is that to be "true" (love) it can only be shared and never imposed. If it is imposed, it is not true, for if it is imposed it comes from power and not the message of love it preaches. I think the message of "God" is love, for if it were not, would he not have made us slaves with no choice? I wish his followers would pick up on that difference. Nietzsche couldn't seperate the message from the messenger.
I like that saying that goes... if you love something let it go free, if it comes back to you, then it's yours. One of my favourites... it's a heart check... do I love this... or do I just seek to control it.
So maybe to wrap this post up... when you climb, do you do it because you love it, or because you want to conquer it? Why do you climb? What is your fundamental drive?
16 March 2010 - 9:13am
#3
Why do you climb? What is your fundamental drive?
chicks dig it
16 March 2010 - 9:34am
#4
Do you wish to conquer those chicks, or love them? 
16 March 2010 - 9:23am
#5
Why do you climb? What is your fundamental drive?
I like to play with toys.
16 March 2010 - 11:28am
#6
It's a self-indulgent luxury enabled by contemporary western lifestyles. Sort of like a Lady Gaga concert. Subsistence agriculture and new Prana shorts are, as a general rule, mutually incompatible.
16 March 2010 - 11:42am
#7
Heh, maybe I mistook this thread for being deep. I love climbing because to me it's a never ending challenge to my mind and body. Physically it strengthens me, giving me a positive body image. Mentally it motives me, toughens me and challenges me that overcoming like in all things is mostly all in my mind. It's the hard things in life that grow strength and depth. Struggle is a key ingrediant for growth.
16 March 2010 - 4:47pm
#8
When the human being considered it necessary to make a memory for himself
I don't see that's necessarily about religion. Could as well be an explanation of why people climb new routes. Anyways, I think the hermit I met when I was climbing at Montserrat in Spain would dispute that religion is always forced on people – he said he was living up there alone because he loved God and wanted to demonstrate his devotion.
the most terrible sacrifices and pledges . . . the most repulsive self-mutilations
Has anyone else read Mark Twight's book? Or this:
As I had shed my outer, physical layers, my inner self was revealed. This is what I had come for. I could no longer feel, only think. The physical suffering had ceased. I had the will to keep going. I was spurred on by a personal soundtrack, the measureless blast-beats of black metal music pulsing through my head and coursing through my veins. Introspection was the catalyst I needed.
That's Vince Anderson on summit day (day 6) of the direct route on Nanga Parbat he climbed with Steve House in 2008.
17 March 2010 - 8:53am
#9
They say a cat has nine lives. I am pretty sure that this sentiment is true for climbers. Going into the hills voluntarily (or possibly coerced by a keen partner) is a form of masochism. The closer we come to our own personal limits or to using up a life, the more fulfilled we become by the experience. Powerful emotions are fully exposed. We remember those 20 hours days, getting hit in the face with a chunck of ice, shivering all night on an unplanned bivy, those 40km walks to the car, hours with sore feet on the moraine, the jubilation of a car that starts in a remote location.
We can't wait to get started and we can't wait to get down. Summit worship is a spiritual experience. But ground worship cements the experience in our mind for all time. Who needs a church when we have the mountains!
17 March 2010 - 11:23am
#10
"who needs a church when we have the mountains"
"The mountains are not stadiums where I satisfy my ambitions to achieve. They are my cathedrals, the houses of my religion. In the mountains I attempt to understand my life." Boukreev
17 March 2010 - 12:26pm
#11
"The mountains are not stadiums where I satisfy my ambitions to achieve. They are my cathedrals, the houses of my religion. In the mountains I attempt to understand my life." Boukreev
and stolen by TC (total capitalists) - have they no shame:
"Winter my religion, Summit Rocks my cathedral" - http://www.treblecone.com/
18 March 2010 - 8:51pm
#12
So yes, I think
When the human being considered it necessary to make a memory for himself, it never happened without blood, martyrs, and sacrifices
and
In the mountains I attempt to understand my life
are essentially saying the same thing. Even though I spend a lot of time when I'm in the mountains trying real hard not to slip up, it's still a ritualistic kind of activity that's always holding out the prospect of terrible sacrifice and repulsive mutilation. Without that I don't reckon it'd have the same appeal.
Yes, I do think that's weird.
29 June 2010 - 11:42am
#13
29 June 2010 - 11:48am
#14
lol
30 June 2010 - 9:56am
#15
Loving it.
Nietzsche is discussing religion here, not alpine climbing. This may have been the treatise where he stated God is Dead, but nevertheless he is addressing the illogical way that we as men have justified persecution against other groups, ie Catholics, Jews, Asians, Blacks, Infidels, Witches, and people who place bolts in the mountains
, all in the name of what is considered Just, Pure, and genuinely devout.
I'm not sure where Nietzches argument leads, however freeing ourselves from religious influence and oppression in Europe & Great Britain must have involved more bloodshed, sacrifice, torture, mental toughness, and a body count way beyond than what your alpine climber could only begin to comprehend.
The flaw you make by thinking Friedrichs opinion relates to alpine climbing is that climbing is a chosen masochistic activity whereas religion is or was forced upon general populations in an organised and deliberate manner and seems to involve sadistic behaviour directed towards certain others.
Shutchoassup biarch njus climb ehbro ?