Letter to Climber Magazine from WRCC with NZAC reply- The System Works
9 July 2011 - 3:32pm
The System Works
The Wanaka area is a rock climbing resource enjoyed by many, this recreational resource has been possible largely due to an enthusiastic group of volunteers who had the foresight many years ago to form the Wanaka Rock Climbing Club, which, a few years later, evolved into a not-for-profit incorporated society based upon conservation and development of the Wanaka area. Over the years, WRCC has maintained both route information and crucial relationships with local land managers and the Department of Conservation. WRCC has a Memorandum of Understanding with DOC that outlines both parties mutual responsibilities. There are currently about 800 routes in the Wanaka area and it is now a highly rated, all season sport climbing destination. WRCC proceeds have also spilled over into development and maintenance of many neighbouring South Island climbing areas. WRCC’s success is a direct result of funding derived from the sale of a local guidebook. The system in Wanaka is a model of success to be emulated around the country. The beneficiaries of this system are all New Zealand climbers, including NZAC members, educational groups and international visitors.
Now, the editors of Rock Deluxe intend to publish a new edition of their guidebook, which will include Wanaka area information, without any financial consideration for WRCC. The editors want to freely collect, then alter and publish local information for their own benefit and personal profit. NZAC is supporting this publication, adding prestige and significant distribution capabilities. From past experience, the economic result of Rock Deluxe and other guides like it is a financial disaster for non-profit local climbing communities who want to generate their own funds from the sale of local guidebooks. Additionally, NZAC is facilitating the consolidation of an online national database of route information, which may be used in the future for other commercial guidebook ventures. Should WRCC be expected to give up our ethical, moral and legal copyright for the benefit of a few? Are we meant to abandon our primary source of funding due to financial risk? How will we conserve the Wanaka area climbing resource without adequate funding? The answers to these questions may set a new and worrisome future precedent, which will jeopardise the relevancy and the effectiveness of local clubs like WRCC.
Respectfully, we request that the editors of Rock Deluxe make a donation to WRCC for the publication of any Wanaka area rock climbing information. Furthermore, we request that NZAC investigate a new guide information system that will continue the funding for local climbing clubs which conserve of our common resources for the benefit of future generations. Rock climbing in Wanaka is a growing asset to New Zealand. The system works.
–Greg Johnston, on behalf of the Wanaka Rock Climbing Club, Incorporated.
NZAC responds:
In my capacity as NZAC Publications Convenor, I respond to Greg Johnston’s letter sent on behalf of the Wanaka Rock Climbing Club (WRCC).
First, it is important to acknowledge WRCC’s outstanding contribution to securing and maintaining access to the great rock climbing in and around Wanaka. We are all acutely aware of how important good access arrangements are to the continued development of climbing in New Zealand, and the Club supports all positive local access initiatives. The Club also recognises that (sometimes) important access work is time-consuming and thankless. So thanks WRCC!
As to the publications issue, WRCC is concerned that publication of Wanaka rock climbing information in the proposed second edition of Rock Deluxe will compromise sales of WRCC’s own guidebook. WRCC appears to regard that information as proprietary (a debatable proposition) and wishes to protect its guidebook revenue stream to subsidise route maintenance and development; that is what WRCC calls the ‘system’.
Plainly, that system has worked. However, it is not the only system. And it is also not without its drawbacks. Two drawbacks that spring to mind are: (a) overpriced, poor quality guidebooks and (b) poor quality routes. Obviously there is a subjective element at play here, but I believe both have been byproducts of the WRCC system.
The Club’s role is to foster climbing in New Zealand. In the present context, the Club considers that is best achieved by (a) free access to basic crag and route information for all climbing areas in New Zealand, (b) production of high-quality guidebooks for those who want more than just the ‘basics’ and (c) a well-funded bolting fund that Wanaka climbers (as well as everyone else) can utilise for subsidised route development.
As far as I am aware, the authors of Rock Deluxe are aligned with that vision and they propose to make a donation for every book sold to the the bolting fund. As distributor of the book, any Club income from the book will inevitably be channeled back into the Club’s many climbing-focused activities.
All of the above is, I believe, ultimately positive for New Zealand climbing, even for the WRCC. As the saying goes, a little competition can’t hurt, and I would encourage Greg and the other WRCC members to meet the Rock Deluxe challenge head on—by producing a high-quality guidebook befitting the outstanding resource they have helped develop and maintain, and to spend the proceeds from that endeavour on establishing more great routes for the masses to enjoy.
–John Palmer
My Resposne to Climber Magazine (which will probably not get published)
Hi Kester –
Now it is official in your international climbing magazine, the NZAC leadership supports the claim that volunteer not for profit efforts of the WRCC have resulted in “overpriced, poor quality guidebooks and poor quality routes.”
John Palmer is simply regurgitating Ivan’s distorted position and specifically naming me to remedy a future outcome adds personal insult. I would like to know how many NZAC members would agree with this ridiculous assertion.
Unfortunately, John Palmer completely glossed over the probability that Ivan and Kate stand to personal profit, in excess of $100,000 for their publication. And cleverly, he did not mention that NZAC will likely move away from a bolting fund in favour of a general access fund that may not directly fund subsidized bolting.
Accolades and encouragement to produce “more great routes for the masses” are meaningless while NZAC supports private interest groups to compete with non profit incorporated societies.
I think it would be worthwhile for your reader to have all the information.
11 July 2011 - 9:05pm
#2
The most significant driver of WRCC activities has been the search for new routes.
I believe the crux of the issue is around stewardship of a nationally significant climbing resource. The WRCC has demonstrated a commitment to maintaining and developing rock climbing in our region to the best standard. This unpaid, volunteer work is by a handful of individuals acting for the collective benefit of the climbing community. .
Good letter Ed but I disagree a bit - I actually think if the WRCC concentrated on all those things like stewardship mentioned rather than what seems to be a worry that there might be no money for new routing people from outside the area may be more supportive. You would also need considerably less funding...
11 July 2011 - 10:11pm
#3
thanks for that, but i beg to disagree with your disagreement old chap
WRCC DOES FOCUS on all those issues ... in fact it concentrates rather hard ... a recent example is negotiating access to the crags on Mt Iron ... perhaps the real issue is that most folks including NZAc it seems are more or less completly unaware just how much unpaid work does get done on behalf of climbers by the WRCC... perhaps we should publicise this much better, but to be honest it hasnt seemed necessary to justify our position until now.. WRCC just got on with the job
We have made no secret (its plastered on our guides) of the fact that proceeds are used to develop and maintain the local climbing area .... i always thought that was a pretty good idea ... you know plough back the money into climbing in Wanaka ...?
Why wouldnt climbers from outside the area support this demonstrably successful local initiative?
Personally i always wondered why other regions didnt develop similar models ...
10 July 2011 - 4:10pm
#4
There seem to be so many wrong statements on both sides of this argument it's difficult to know where to start. I basically have a problem with the moral side of the argument.
Having climbed a bit with Murray Judge in town, who has contributed as much to New Zealand rock climbing as anyone else, who hasn't asked for recognition, who gives away his route information readily and freely to other people writing guide books for a profit, who mostly buys his own bolts... it wouldn't worry me if you all did pistols at 10 paces and shot each other dead. There is an attitude of selfishness in both sides I don't expect will ever get solved with the exception of selling out for money. Shame on you. Grow up. You both can't seem to see outside your own corners... what an image to present to international climbers who benefit the whole community and New Zealand.
10 July 2011 - 6:29pm
#5
well this is certainly livening up this forum eh 
maybe bolt guns at ten metres might be an appropriate solution?
10 July 2011 - 9:43pm
#6
completely out of line for wanaka to be included in rock deluxe without some sort of agreement being reached between the authors and WRCC. Hell, why wouldn't WRCC revisit some of the access agreements such that "route information may only be published by WRCC or their agents".
a couple of questions to NZAC/rep of NZAC:
1 - Should NZAC be preferentially supporting individuals in their personal (for profit) business endeavours, or supporting clubs that have a history of promoting and sharing many of NZAC's aims
2 - would NZAC provide financial and/or other (e.g. editorial) support to WRCC production of a "high-quality" guidebook to the wanaka region? what about guaranteed sales volumes (e.g. by pre-purchasing guidebooks)?
11 July 2011 - 1:26pm
#7
How many people have climbed Taniwha Ed? How much is WRCC's per-climber subsidy?
11 July 2011 - 8:38pm
#8
How many people have climbed Taniwha Ed? How much is WRCC's per-climber subsidy?
err not quite sure what your point is here? sorry we were to busy to install a turnstile on the access track to keep a track of numbers, but thats not the point is it?
maybe better to consider the thousands that have played on the more accessible routes closer to town equipped in large part with gear paid for by the sale of the local guides (thanks Sal!) and the very welcome contributions made by South Island Rock and Rock Deluxe
weve never had a WRCC per climber subsidy figure, but if you ever want to bolt the searing test piece of your dreams down in Wanaka join the WRCC and they can help ... assuming they have any money that is ....
11 July 2011 - 1:53pm
#9
2 from this house have climed Taniwha.
The WRCC anchors are great. Pre this people used to source 'affordable' options. Non rated chain etc. Now it is standardised and safe. I have also use the Toilets, climbed the awesome 21 at the new Peppermill ? crag. The climbs at Lower kaiwhaka pai....Awesome again. I have seen working bees on the tracks, and cleaning moss off routes.
I have bought 3 wanaka guides over 10 years, so maybe the club got 30 bucks out of me. Not a bad return for easily accesible clean, safe climbing.
Re the poor Quality routes in the NZAC reply. Sure there are definately examples of this.eg Crackhouse new routes . But it seriously an extremely small percentage. There are some Amazing quality new climbs, and The safety standard has improved remarkably
11 July 2011 - 4:51pm
#10
John rather naively states that the NZAC wishes to see free access to basic crag and route information, in which case I eagerly look forward to receiving a complete free set of NZAC climbing guides which I will then on sell to visitors. Profits from such sales will naturally be directed straight back into the Wanaka region.
See http://climbnz.org.nz/nz/si/nelson-lakes
and http://climbnz.org.nz/nz/si/arthurs-pass
Sorry, can't do every area at once. Please forward these links on to all your mates, but remember that selling the information will violate the terms of use!
11 July 2011 - 7:22pm
#11
[quot
Sorry, can't do every area at once. Please forward these links on to all your mates, but remember that selling the information will violate the terms of use!
am i missing the irony?
11 July 2011 - 5:04pm
#12
Oh yeah, and also http://climbnz.org.nz/nz/ni/tongariro
11 July 2011 - 8:39pm
#13
Dunno. Maybe I am?
11 July 2011 - 9:10pm
#14
No, pretty sure it's not you, growingwild.
EN, what do you think of the quality of the current WRCC guidebook? How does the $40 price tag compare to: http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Australasia/New_Zealand/Central_Otago...
11 July 2011 - 9:11pm
#15
Kind of annoying how replies get nested under the original post rather than at the bottom, eh.
11 July 2011 - 9:19pm
#16
It's the reply button that causes the problems - it really ought to defauly to the 'new post' field at the bottom of the thread.
11 July 2011 - 9:28pm
#17
It is not the reply function itself which causes this, but rather that the forum is presented by default in "tree view" mode.
Other than explicitly including a quote of the OP, this is the only way to visually determine to whom/orig.OP the new post is replying to.
Feel free to post a suggestion of how you would like to see it over in the "Comments" section.
I am sure there are other options available.
Cheers 
11 July 2011 - 9:12pm
#18
Baron Brewster is in as well growingwild. Permission and support from Ross.
11 July 2011 - 9:29pm
#19
About the only thing not covered is Wanaka, that's there loss.
11 July 2011 - 9:41pm
#20
the irony was your comment that NZAC guide info is freely available unless it was to be onsold ... maybe I'm dense but that seems a little analagous to our current dilemma ?
anyway density debates aside JP its probably fair to compare apples to apples.. the baron brewster guide dosnt contain, from memory, hundreds of bolted sport routes .... nor has the editor had to cut tracks, install toilets, negotiate access with DOC, Farmers, install signs, rebolt older routes etc etc
as for the current guide , yeah it could be better, but so could many other guides. As suggested by Triplex does NZAC see a role in helping local groups improve the quality of their publications rather then competing with them? If your serious how about NZAC sit down with WRCC (as it did once when helping negotiate the earlier agreements with South Island rock) rather then bicker about the quality of a route guide?
I NZAC so focused on being the over arching national body and repository of all things climbing related that its (perhaps unwittingly) undermining the local organisation that helps provide such a rich climbing resource for its membership and others?
Is the guts of this opposition to WRCC stance based on a little jealousy? have we had it too good? ....
Or is it the commercial realisation that without a big chunk of wanaka routes being included in rock deluxe then the guide isnt as profitable for both nzac and the editors?
JP there is little we can do to constrain the online guides other then appeal to the editors of these guides to respect the status quo and keep such guides to the area at a reasonable limit in terms of route numbers so that visitors are still enticed to purchase the local guide
maybe your position would be more viable were you proposing to distribute Rock deluxe for free online..
but you probably wouldnt do that.... it would cost to much
ironic
yeah
11 July 2011 - 10:15pm
#21
Is the guts of this opposition to WRCC stance based on a little jealousy?
Pigheadedness actually. Twin Streams in the Baron Brewster has about 100 mixed routes for your information. All the other considerations you think are only issues for the elite area of wanaka aren't the case if you could actually get your head out of the clouds. I've never seen so many outlandish statements made ever before. Did your mum die when you were little? Bitter and twisted at the world or something? I wouldn't cut these Wanaka guys any slack at all, stuff them. Totally pathetic in their attitude, huge chip on their shoulder. I had no idea till now. Can't say I wasn't warned though.
11 July 2011 - 10:16pm
#22
oh ok so pigheadedness is ok? errr nice one .... hey I dont know you personally Jezer but I'd urge you to pull your fucking head in ... if you want to trade insults do it where I can see you, shouldnt take long...
11 July 2011 - 10:28pm
#23
I'd support leaving them out of climbnz and rock deluxe.
11 July 2011 - 10:38pm
#24
oh so you agree with us then?
11 July 2011 - 10:51pm
#25
On not being in climbnz and rock deluxe. Yes I do. When you pass on someone whose not so bitter and twisted might wonder why the bolts are rusting in Wanaka.
11 July 2011 - 11:49pm
#26
the point that your strenuously missing is that when I do pass on there will be a pool of money available to rebolt the routes provided by sales of the local guide and contributions from the likes of rock deluxe
twisted ? maybe
bitter? not likely
11 July 2011 - 10:03pm
#27
how about NZAC sit down with WRCC
Good idea. There's a lot more to say about this topic and a Smacktalk forum ain't the place.
11 July 2011 - 10:26pm
#28
Well, it most certainly looks like JP's viagra has kicked in in the Smack Talk forum.
Just a quick reminder here to not let it get too out of hand...
NZ is an island after all, the chances of actually personally knowing John Doe on the internet IRL aren't actually all that small.
Cheers,
Gabe
11 July 2011 - 10:54pm
#29
Getting back on topic, rather than a turnstile at the bottom of Taniwha, Ed, maybe you could hire a marketing company to do exit interviews at the top. Really get some insight into your customer base. You know, like on a scale of 1 to 5 where 1 is strongly agree and 5 is strongly disagree, respond to these statements: "I would pay $60 for an iPad app that I could take on the route if it gave move by move beta?" "I am an old dude who has a family and knackered tendons and can't go to the crag any more, but remains full of un-channelled vitriol and slander. You know, the middle-aged mountain biker demographic."
11 July 2011 - 11:28pm
#30
exit interviews ... hmmm good idea
12 July 2011 - 10:21am
#31
Wow, Jezer, I heard you were a nice guy. I welcomed you to Wanaka. I am disappointed with my judgement, now. I thought you might want to join the ranks of the selfless and chronic under-employed. We have a few (a lot) crusty old farts around but I don't see anyone with a chip. We put significant energy into our surroundings and simply request a reasonable donation for conservation of the Wanaka Area Resource.
I have very graciously communicated with Ivan Vostinar and he pointed out that he and Kate would not give us a donation because then they might have to give queenstown a donation, etc. , etc. He told me that he felt justified to include Wanaka Area because of inaccuracies in the Wanaka guidebook and because of "shitty little routes."
Additionally, I have communicated with Ollie Clifton through email and by telephone. He told me they support the editors of Rock Deluxe and they will not intervene to either offer a donation on behalf of NZAC or otherwise. I did ask him to withdraw support for the publication and he declined. He told me in plain language that the problem for them is access to north island crags and that NZAC is most likely going away from a specific bolting fund towards a general access fund. Now, correct me if I am wrong but our communication has been nothing but cordial, gracious and to the point.
We respectfully request that the editors of Rock Deluxe make some type of donation to WRCC or please do not put Wanaka Area in Rock Deluxe.
Additionally, we respectfully request NZAC explore a new model for guidebook development. I will put out a suggestion that a team of volunteers could be assembled and paid for expenses rendered to develop a national "Select" type guidebook. After administration expenses, proceeds could be allocated on some type of percentage basis to local clubs that are organized to accept donations. The balance of the funding could be made available by application or go into an access fund.
In any case, WRCC will continue to improve our guide and route information system so that future generations of New Zealand climbers and visitors can enjoy our fab resource. Selfish, I know, but it is the path that we have chosen.
Greg Johnston
12 July 2011 - 10:52am
#32
Talk to Ed, Greg. We have a PM going on. I like to think I am a nice guy, but certain attitudes tick me off. I believe in putting others interests above the individual within reason... but I'm not talking about being willfully exploited. As I have written to Ed, I think you guys should start thinking of other ideas to financially support your club, as guide books are headed in the same direction as public libraries.
I flicked through your new guidebook while I was in Wanaka at the Mountain Film Festival. It's overpriced... I actually prefer your older one. I thought to myself, as long as Wanaka seeks to make money for bolting from this book there is going to be trouble.
Although I think there should be recompense for commerical gain made out of intellectural property - ie, rock deluxe, ultimately I think you guys win if you actually give this information away freely to a site such as climbnz, and get money some other way. This might be a difficult transition, but think about the spin offs to your community in regards to tourism. The greater good so to speak.
Might I also point out climbnz is also to help sell guidebooks... yes, some of us prefer books... it's not exactly counter productive. It's why the guidebooks are shown along with the routes on climbnz.
See there are other international websites doing what climbnz is doing. Climbnz has sort to keep the expertise in New Zealand, and to support their attitude they are publishing most of there own guidebooks online. A gutsy move which I respect. I don't have issues with the "heart" of the alpine club when they do things. I think it's genuine.
I'm a reasonable guy I think, and I still look to move to Wanaka, I'm afraid some points you listed in another thread just totally ticked me off, because some were ill informed and some were wrong. I would certainly like to meet you guys and try and work these issues out. If we can get you on another revenue stream I think all this can be sorted out, and a site like climbnz can sell your community... a community I wish to be a part of, if the attitudes are right.
Most of all I think guidebook revenue is a mistake. I think this road only leads down, which leads to more desperation which could lead to isolation. Sincerely think it's time to develope new ideas. Or maybe just change the medium... like newspapers are having too. I also think the alpine club want to help you guys more than what you give them credit for. If we could just be a little bit more unified on some issues, new revenue streams could actually open up for all groups inside the NZAC body. I think this iPhone App is a creditable idea, it could provide the basis of a far better national bolting fund. Can you see the bigger picture?
12 July 2011 - 10:51am
#33
En, there is no question that the NZAC’s publications function would look to support any WRCC or other private initiative to produce a high quality area guide for Wanaka or anywhere else. However, without a proposal for that to consider, it is difficult to say what form that support would take. But the Club has done it in the past and will again in the future.
Speaking of Wanaka Rock, as it happens, a few years back on an old Wanaka climbing blog, one of the bloggers posted an invitation for ideas on a new edition of the WRCC guide. I responded suggesting production of a high-quality guide, including a free PDF guide like the one I spent many hours producing for Turakirae Head. My suggestions were not warmly received. Perhaps, if WRCC has seized the moment, we wouldn’t be here.
En, Greg, I hear the arguments about the time and effort you and others have put into developing rock climbing in Wanaka. That is commendable, but hardly unique. It is part of the public service element inherent in any crag development. I’ve cut tracks, spent hundreds of dollars on bolts, moved tonnes of rock etc….for zero financial return. Is that naivety or reality?
Greg, I think your commitment to improving the WRCC guide and route information system is the answer. If you produce a compelling product, the punters will come. I'd also encourage you to look at other ways of funding route development in Wanaka. For example, do the commercial operators who use Wanaka climbing resources contribute financially to the WRCC? Do you have a mechanism for requesting and accepting donations from the public? Have you considered other revenue options like iPhone apps, calendars, tee shirts and the like?
12 July 2011 - 11:56am
#34
NZAC publications don't do any thing for the local area. This is why Queenstown do their own.
Nor are they particularly involved in those communities leading to the need for this extra funding source.
12 July 2011 - 12:18pm
#35
I don't think guide books do much for the NZAC anymore either. Everyone is having to adapt. I think we are currently on a 'bridge' heading towards a more digital approach. (Having come from a written approach) Writing books for revenue kind of makes sense and it kind of doesn't during this inbetween phase.
The same thing I think is happening with music. The days of buying CD's with 10+ songs are numbered, I personally just buy the ones I like over iTunes at an individual cost. I haven't brought a CD in 3 years.
It's a transitional stage. I don't expect rock deluxe version 2 to do very well. It's a bad time for books.
Maybe cheaper digital guidebooks maintained by the community is the way forward. Maybe they could be broken down into areas and sold electronically. Local areas getting the benefit of the sale. This seems a reasonable vision to me. Since the areas are worked by the clubs, proceeds should go to the clubs. The idea requires a shift in thinking, and a bit of faith. NZAC should ideally provide the app, clubs should provide the datasets in conjunction with. Thinking out loud here. We need to change to protect this community we have invested so much time in. The NZAC website should now be in a position to sell things. It's a slow process, just don't invest it all in guidebooks.
12 July 2011 - 12:23pm
#36
I don't think that's a fair comment at all, Sally. Recent "things" for local areas that spring to mind:
http://aucklandclimber.org.nz/index.htm - see the bottom two posts re: the Club's efforts to reopen the Quarry in Auckland and the link to the free Quarry PDF guide.
The Wellington Section's advocacy to the GWRC regarding the acquisition of Baring Head land and, following that acquisition, its detailed submissions made recently in the management plan for that area that seeks to ensure access for all climbers to one of New Zealand's oldest climber areas.
On the local guidebook front, the Club was recently approached by a Dunedin stalwart wanting some assistance with distrubution of an updated Dunedin guide. Assistance was unreservedly offered. The Club has also assisted (directly as a publisher and indirectly as a distributor and/or financial supporter) with guides for Wellington, Paynes Ford, Castle Hill and sport climbing in the Darrans.
In my brief tenure as publications convenor, I don't recall any approach from the Queenstown club regarding its guide. But I see that the Club distributes it: http://alpineclub.org.nz/product/queenstown-rock-ice-and-mixed Presumably that assists with sales?
12 July 2011 - 1:35pm
#37
I will apologize if I have offended anybody with inflammatory remarks. Some of them were meant to be cheeky, but their is at least partial truth in each statement. I was very careful not to use definitive language.
It is rather difficult to accept bogus criticism that we have a)poor quality, over priced guide books and b)poor quality routes. Personally, I find those statements inflammatory and utterly false. What guidebook with a similar amount of content and quality retails for less than $40?
WRCC is open to having Wanaka Area information online but we are opposed to giving NZAC the right to commercialize the material for their own benefit or the selfish benefit of a select few.
Selfish is Ivan Vostinar and Kate Sinclair, who by their own admission, made a combined income of $120,000 from their first edition. Selfish are the editors of Rock Deluxe who will probably earn a similar figure with their new edition. Both of whom are conspicuously absent from this communication.
For the record, WRCC has been putting route information on the web, free, for several years. And, we have not ruled out a comprehensive listing for the future. Furthermore, we are testing pdf maps to supplement printed publications and we have already experimented with an iphone app. All of these options take significant energy and resources.
12 July 2011 - 1:51pm
#38
12 July 2011 - 1:58pm
#39
Not that I want to stick up for Rock Deluxe's editors especially, Boulderdash, but apply your own maths and for them to have made that much would need total income of $480,000, selling around 8300 copies. If that's true I'll eat my old copy of Rock Deluxe and buy up your remaining stock of Wanaka Guides.
12 July 2011 - 2:28pm
#40
They probably sold 120k and made 30k. When you consider a years work minus expenses, it might be a nice lifestyle but its no money spinner. Who gets the money when the mountaineering books are sold? Part club, part author? Were they written for the club? Is the NZAC is a position to release the figures of just how drab book sales are? I swear there is no decent money in books anymore, but prove me wrong. I sure think there is easier money than books.
12 July 2011 - 2:28pm
#41
righto i'm getting a glimpse of the future ... its RAD lets digitise all the crags, and the roads and tracks to them, put them into a virtual platform so we can slip into virtual space and climb them from the comfort of home, meanwhile we sell advertising space to climbing manufacturers which could really enhance the experience SICK ...
maybe a direct upload to 8anu so upon reaching the chains your score is automatically updated? RAD RAD RAD
how about online gear reviews and sales so when your making the virtual clip you can pause and purchase a longer runner for the difficult clip or change shoes on the scary slabby smears?
think of the advantages ... no access problems cause no one goes to the crags anymore .... awesome
no need for WRCC, just a bunch of webmasters in the NZAC national office ... hey! maybe they dont even need an office anymore? surely it would be cheaper, and reduce my annual membership fees, if the office was sold and the various officers worked from home ... section meetings could be abolished and replaced with mass online conference calls RAD
maybe the sale of the office could help pay for a debate on the causes of the death of local climbing clubs
librarys are on their way out as well, so time to phase out the NZAC library before no one stops going there, the roads are buggered in chch anyway, put all the books online, ditch the hard copies SAWEEET
climber magazine could go online, print media is so passe.. the alpine journal would be so much better if i could read it on my iphone. And think of the room i could save on my bookshelf if i cleared out all those tedious books, journals and magazines and replaced them with an e-reader, think of the reduction in our carbon footprint when the club no longer uses paper or post... awwwsomme
of course there will be a period of adjustment while us dinosaurs say goodbye to books, newspapers, magazines ... actually considering this i wonder why nzac is bothering to support rock deluxe at all, after all its a 
book!
But seriously, if the root of the nzac position is to see an improved wanaka guide then NZAC should get alongside WRCC and assist them rather then publish a competing selected guide which returns nothing to the area directly. I hear you JP when you say your kind offer was rejected some years ago, bummer ... should have been handled better for sure, but this is a very different debate
Why has rock deluxe changed their position? Rock deluxe 1 made a valuable contribution to the region by agreeing to publish a limted selection of routes. This left an incentive for visitors to purchase a more complete local publication. Rock deluxe 1 also made a direct donation to the WRCC to purchase hardware for the area, a mutually beneficial and sustainable relationship we thought. Rock deluxe 2 wants to double the number of wanaka routes, thereby removing much of the incentive to purchase a local guide, and refuses to make a contribution to the group that maintains the resource from which they will profit? Because if they did theyd have to make a donation to the queenstown group as well ...? Instead they propose to make a donation to NZAC which will by necessity of the clubs functions be spread amongst a range of competing funding needs, is NZAc really prepared to go into direct competition with a group that by default has carried out much of NZACs advocacy function?
As for the relative expense of the local guide it should be noted that each cost $10 to print, WRCC sells them for $20 to retailers who sell them for $40... join the WRCC and you get them cheaper ...
Maybe cheaper digital guidebooks maintained by the community is the way forward. Maybe they could be broken down into areas and sold electronically. Local areas getting the benefit of the sale. This seems a reasonable vision to me. Since the areas are worked by the clubs, proceeds should go to the clubs. The idea requires a shift in thinking, and a bit of faith. NZAC should ideally provide the app, clubs should provide the datasets in conjunction with. Thinking out loud here. We need to change to protect this community we have invested so much time in. The NZAC website should now be in a position to sell things. It's a slow process, just don't invest it all in guidebooks.
Thanks for that Jezer, maybe your vision is a glimpse of the future
Be good to hear from Rock Deluxe eh....
12 July 2011 - 2:42pm
#42
Why don't we make a plan. An agreement, that everyone is happy with moving forward. This is the second rant thread involving Rock Deluxe, it comes around yearly. Something that overtime pulls everything together and is fair to club and groups. A Mutal Agreement. Map it out like the Unwin project. It may require a few backwards steps and a few little wavers or special circumstances for the first year or two, but for future years, why can't we be all on the same page.... er iPhone thingy. Hard job, but needs to be done? I think so. Would publications be interested in doing this?
Needs to outline groups such as Wanaka, Queenstown, NZAC, Old Guidebooks, Climb NZ, Rock Deluxe etc etc and what we are all heading to and how we are going to get there. It needs to go through a consultation process... imagine unity one day... it would be worth it.
12 July 2011 - 2:43pm
#43
All those recent things are Cities with large memberships, regular meetings, Guest speaker tours etc.
NZAC helped with access and Signage at Jardines, and I personally use the hut and bolt discounts.
I love being a NZAC member and the benefits of that, and even went on a club trip after 7 years.
I think the need for a local clubs down here has arisen from the lack of NZAC engagement in our communities.
It is partly our isolation, 3.5 hrs each way to a meeting on a work night is not going to happen.
NZAC has not been contributing much to this area (And when it did it was not well informed (Remarks bolting)) Also communication could be better and bolting fund applications should be ay least acknowledged, even if declined.
As an example the Graham Zimmerman talk is advertised on the NZAC site, but it is NZAC event in other centres, but from the poster I can’t see any involvement here. I am sure behind the scenes there has been coordination, but to your average climber would it seem it?
Access, Maintenance, Anchor safety, Toilet are all club initiatives funded locally. I think over $5000 will have been spent on projects this year that benefit all climbers not just club members. They probably should be funded locally as NZAC has different focus. (Huts, expeditions, library, staff and premises, national advocacy etc) I think the two sit well next to each other.
I don't think they should put local climbs on climbnz unless they plan on being more involved in these local issues and providing new funding which I think is highly unrealistic.
JP- i dont know for sure about the guide deal. I know NZAC really helped Guillaume out with format and heaps of advice, he even travelled up to learn the programme. He thought that the current situation with NZAC as a distributor was far better for our community than what I think was a one of cash payment to the author. I didn't mean to critisize the Club but thought a one off 2 or 3 grand payment dosn't go far at $20/ ring anchor. It would probably only work out as a few bucks/hour for the work gone into the guide.
12 July 2011 - 2:52pm
#44
Huge apolgy, I got that wrong. On 26 January 2010 Ivan said,
There are no profits! Rock deluxe brief summery...
Time to complete = one year full-time for two people sometimes working up to 60 hours per week.
Trip and equipment costs $13,000
Printing $22,000
Income after expenses $35,000 each (but that’s after being out of pocket for two years and then having that income dribble in over 5 years). Not many would work for that kind of deal.
12 July 2011 - 3:05pm
#45
Nothing goes onto ClimbNZ without permission from the authors. It just so happens most of NZ is ok with it. It's seems it's the tourist area's with involvement from climbing professionals that hold out. You haven't even been approached yet, that is possibly months down the track, it may even never happen simply because we know how some feel about it. Ultimately it will be your decision, one we hope will become more attractive over time due to the benefits. Appart from being "setup" and populated, it's future is totally unclear during this bridging time.
12 July 2011 - 3:12pm
#46
Come back Ed, we need you over here, you should be prez of NZAC. ...but on second thoughts, you could run everything virtually from WA!
Seriously, this is getting interesting. I can see the future but Rock Deluxe (and South Island Rock) is maybe in the way. It's great how a community of climbers can share and contribute and locate information so easily online. (In my utopian socialist world view.)
But books will never go away I reckon. When you're at the crag, a book is what works best.
12 July 2011 - 3:15pm
#47
Isn't income after expenses profit? Ok, let's call it financial gain. Since much of the work is already done And since they have not donated 80 anchors to WRCC. Rock Deluxe 2 should be more financially beneficial to the editors.
And if history repeats, WRCC guide sales will drop by more than half and we may do far worse based upon the life cycle of the book, which is going on a couple of years or more.
We may just a have a good supply of books, which can be heavily discounted on the NZAC website.
12 July 2011 - 3:17pm
#48
And another thing. Retailers seem to be making a killing out of this guidebook business for doing (comparatively) stuff all. If we're going to be hard on people for being profit focused and not giving anything back to the community, that's where I'm looking.
12 July 2011 - 3:39pm
#49
On a serious note WRCC
You could add tourist value other ways.
I'm a botany geek...maybe Falcon/ Karearea chapter. What about those Hectors tree daisy's up the valley?
Funny local stories chapter
A page of other adventure links in area. Mountainbike, paragliding, etc.
Fun local adventures, Cool huts,What's the best short walk if your pumped by lunch time? something other guides don't cover.
Changing /adding content can also help re sell to existing customers.
12 July 2011 - 3:44pm
#50
The trouble is the price has gone up for Wanaka rock, but a lot of us still have the old copy. Why would you pay $40 for an improvement, when you have the crux for $15. Yes, books will be around a while more yet. But I think mostly they will only return what they cost in this new world. How many did you print? That's partly why the digital thing is attractive... zero printing costs, more profit.
Both Gregs letter on behalf of WRCC and Johns reply for NZAC raise some interesting points.
Some historical perspective is , as always, useful.
For nearly 20 years members of the WRCC have campaigned tirelessly for the maintenance and development of the Wanaka region rock climbing. As acknowledged in both letters the result has been an outstanding resource. The standard of fixed equipment on the crags has been generally 'best practice' by NZ standards and certainly far better then many other areas. WRCC members have cut tracks, installed toilets, signs, track markers and cleaned and bolted and rebolted hundreds of quality sport climbs. It is heartening to see the NZAC following the lead of grassroots organisations like WRCC and establishing a pool of funds and equipment for bolting and rebolting projects.
In many respects the Wanaka example of pro-active crag management has set the bar for how a local community group can manage a climbing resource in the best interests of the whole climbing community, the local land owners and other stake holders. The best evidence of this work is the MOU with DOC, and significant input into the high country tenure review process, national park management plan and direct negotiations with land owners. The result of these efforts has been the securing of large amounts of crags into the DOC recreational reserve estate for the benefit of the entire climbing community. This is far beyond the (sometimes) important access work that John refers to.
The most significant driver of WRCC activities has been the search for new routes. The vast majority of these routes are of very high quality including superb multi-pitch sport routes and cutting edge test pieces such as the recent routes at Al Cap. While there are a handful of shitty routes these are not much different to those found in any climbing area such as the Port Hills, Castle Hill, Hanging Rock, Paynes and elsewhere.
Personally I have invested thousands of hours and dollars into developing the areas climbing on a range of routes from 10 to 250m , from grade 10 to 29. I have done this for my own enjoyment but with the view that these routes would become worthwhile adventures for the entire rock climbing community. The subsidised anchors from WRCC have enabled me and the other core WRCC members to create some great vertical journeys without undue financial hardship. A few boxes of cheap SS bolts and hangers has been enormously helpful on this process, routes like Taniwha took over 200 bolts and hangers, hundreds of metres of fixed rope and untold sweat. The hardware provide by WRCC has been crucial in enabling this development.
Given the enormous amounts of time and sweat and money invested by WRCC members in development of this area it does not seem unreasonable that they should continue to benefit from the sale of local guides as in the past. Equally it is not unreasonable that producers of other guide books which derive profit from the activities of the WRCC should contribute directly to the ongoing development and maintenance of the climbing area as in the past. This income stream is threatened by the proposed arrangement between Rock Deluxe and NZAC.
Historically the editors of South Island Rock and Rock deluxe have agreed to channel a small portion of their profits back to the WRCC as a recognition of the work of the WRCC in developing and maintaining a resource from which they can derive income. This direct arrangement has been effective and should continue.
While it is great that Rock Deluxe will donate to the NZAC bolting fund, ironically the very high local standard of fixed equipment means the Wanaka region has less use for rebolting funds then many other areas and is thus not likely to see much benefit from the sale of guides to its own backyard. John writes As distributor of the book, any Club income from the book will inevitably be channeled back into the Club’s many climbing-focused activities. It is my view that this income will be so finely spread across all the NZAC activities that WRCC is unlikely to see any significant funding from this source. I have no confidence that the proceeds from the sale of Rock deluxe will make it past the competing demands of a national club with a network of huts, offices, staff, publications, expeditions, courses and regions to the Wanaka region or WRCC in any significant way.
John rather naively states that the NZAC wishes to see free access to basic crag and route information, in which case I eagerly look forward to receiving a complete free set of NZAC climbing guides which I will then on sell to visitors. Profits from such sales will naturally be directed straight back into the Wanaka region.
Johns key assertion in defence of the NZAC and rock deluxe position is that Two drawbacks that spring to mind are: (a) overpriced, poor quality guidebooks and (b) poor quality routes. Obviously there is a subjective element at play here, but I believe both have been byproducts of the WRCC system.
However he also states that Plainly, that system has worked.
As John says the system works! For the system to continue working WRCC has proposed that Rock Deluxe continue to directly support their hard work which benefits the whole climbing community. This seems entirely reasonable. Although John alludes to alternative systems these are not described other then vague assurances that
I believe the crux of the issue is around stewardship of a nationally significant climbing resource. The WRCC has demonstrated a commitment to maintaining and developing rock climbing in our region to the best standard. This unpaid, volunteer work is by a handful of individuals acting for the collective benefit of the climbing community. The NZAC as the national body representing climbing in NZ has been deafeningly quiet in its inputs to the Wanaka climbing resource, largely because the locals have taken care of business pro-actively, thereby minimising the need for the NZAC to be concerned with access arrangements, equipment or other issues and can instead focus on the death and/or rebirth of Alpine climbing and other searingly relevant epochal works.
I do not believe that The NZAC will be able to fill the void that will be left in the management of the Wanaka regions rock climbing estate should the WRCC lose its income stream and funding for new route development and maintenance.
It is my hope that in the future Wanaka locals and some inspired visitors will continue to provide access to a growing body of high quality sport climbing free of charge and without fanfare. A crucial but modest reward for their hard work is access to cheap high quality equipment through sales of their own guide (however imperfect) and a small contribution from publishers of competing guide books to the region.
NZAC should reflect on the WRCC contribution to date and find ways to support grassroots organisations like WRCC through suitable funding arrangements rather then competing with them.