Kingston Cliff RETRO BOLTED
28 March 2011 - 9:37am
An Open Letter to Queenstown Climbers,
Have the climbers in Queenstown lost their sense of adventure, ethics and respect?
I recently learned that DJ Da Generous on the Kingston Cliff has been retro bolted. Apparently the second pitch has gone from seven bolts to 13! This action is a clear affirmation of the above question, but what lies unanswered is; do the majority of the Wakatipu climbers support the homogenisation of our cliffs, or are the actions of late misgivings from a few foolish individuals.
Grid bolting, route clustering and often contrived lines now seem to typify much of the climbing in the Wakatipu. A few years ago it was a place of a few classics with enough in-between to keep climbers entertained. Now many of the black and white cliffs are littered with shiny bolts in confusingly straight lines within an arm’s reach of each other. Is this what climbing in the Wakatipu is about?
There are a few small countries, namely Australia, the United States and Britain, whose climbing communities follow a set of ethics that reflect respect for the rock, the character of the crag and the experience of the climb. These ethics are what give identity to areas such as Joshua Tree, Arapiles and the grit stone of England making them attractive places for climbers to visit and test themselves at a technical, physical and mental level. In these countries, the manner of which a first ascensionist establishes a climb is his creative merit, and if it’s scary, challenging, or downright dangerous, that is the unique character of the route.
DJ was once a fun, safe and adventurous climb that offered climbers confidence or trepidation while running it out on moderate terrain. It is now the latest victim in what seems a campaign to sterilize the climbing in and around Queenstown. Once this door is open it is difficult to close and can lead to the retro bolting of other classics. I’m sure there is enough rock in the Wakatipu to keep those with imagination and creativity establishing routes for years to come without wasting time defacing established routes. Queenstown climbers need to step back and look at what’s been happening as the character of their area changes. Is the climbing in the Wakatipu about over-bolted, homogenised and clustered routes, or is it still about intricate, unique, fun and adventures climbs where creativity and diversity is valued?
28 March 2011 - 5:16pm
#2
Yes, I could use the hangers.
28 March 2011 - 7:18pm
#3
Just interested to know if any of you guys have actually cleaned & put up any new rtes @ Wye or Kingston?
The need to clean many crags in NZ to be able to climb on them requires different ethics to places such as joshua tree, etc which because of cleaness & rockquality can be generally climbed on immediately.
taking hangers is lame.
28 March 2011 - 7:26pm
#4
The need to clean many crags in NZ to be able to climb on them requires different ethics to places such as joshua tree, etc which because of cleaness & rockquality can be generally climbed on immediately.
I find your argument here to be rather faulty.
1) Although, yes, some other places in the world have clean rock, many many many other places don't, and grid bolting (and often any bolting at all) is still taboo. New Zealand doesn't have "different ethics" because the rock is any dirtier/looser than anywhere else.
2) What does this have to do with retro-bolting of established lines?
29 March 2011 - 8:41am
#6
chuggie,
well I agree that character should be maintained if possible. However there are many examples of rtes which were put up top down with minimal cleaning, bolts in the wrong place for a onsight (drws extended of course for 1st ascentionist), preinspected, moves tried....etc.
Some of these rtes do require retrobolting. Better that than a line of ugly, wrongly placed bolts on a dirty, soft rock crag which doesn't get repeated often............so it gets dirtier..........& then it never gets climbed.
29 March 2011 - 11:54am
#7
DJ was once a fun, safe and adventurous climb that offered climbers confidence or trepidation while running it out on moderate terrain.
7 bolts in a 50m pitch doesn't sound fun or safe to me.
And it is contrived trying to make sport climbs 'adventurous' by underbolting them. An underbolted sport climb is not an 'adventurous' route, it is just an 'underbolted sport climb'.
If you want to open adventurous climbs, go open a trad line somewhere.
Regarding the re-bolting on Christmas Wall. I led one of the climbs before it was rebolted (Joyeux Noel) and it was ridiculously runout in places. It was not fun. It was a waste of good rock, and so I fully support the addition of a few bolts to that climb.
29 March 2011 - 3:12pm
#9
Falls, near misses and the point where you break through the mental barrier and actually achieve, to me are often the most memorable moments of climbing.
Why must everyone else be forced to abhere to the same level of awesomeness? Why don't YOU just climb without a rope for your extra thrills. I personally want short falls on adequately bolted routes.
31 March 2011 - 6:49am
#11
Your dictating to everyone else's climbing experience again. There is only one way, your way, the right way. Everyone must risk there neck because you say it's challenging and better for them. If there is adequate bolt protection everyone can climb it, you can just skip clips because your awesome, fine with me, I'd prefer you climbed something hard without a rope - but suit yourself.
31 March 2011 - 11:13am
#12
Why must everyone else be forced to abhere to the same level of awesomeness? Why don't YOU just climb without a rope for your extra thrills. I personally want short falls on adequately bolted routes.
does every route in new zealand have to be sanitised? there are enough short falls around already. I personally prefer onsights to short falls, but maybe that's cos i don't mind trying something commensurate with my climbing ability
31 March 2011 - 12:18pm
#13
does every route in new zealand have to be sanitised? there are enough short falls around already. I personally prefer onsights to short falls, but maybe that's cos i don't mind trying something commensurate with my climbing ability
WTF? Sounds like you are saying that the risk of injury in a fall on a bolted climb should be such that people are discouraged from tackling climbs above their onsight level.
Trad climbing mentality applied to sport climbing. Extremely contrived in my opinion.
31 March 2011 - 9:17pm
#14
there is a lot of rock in nz. Not every route has to be accessible to every person. Hell, retrobolting in this sort of instance is akin to helicopter drop-offs on the summit of cook/taranaki/wherever for photos. Thoughts on that? it removes risk, removes the discouragement for people aspiring towards a summit photo, etc.
29 March 2011 - 3:40pm
#15
And it is contrived trying to make sport climbs 'adventurous' by underbolting them.
It was a waste of good rock, and so I fully support the addition of a few bolts to that climb.
Hey Pluggie, if you are gonna quote my awesome words of wisdom, at least keep them in context. Or are you of the journalistic ilk? Are you trying to imply I am saying your bolting of DJ was a waste of good rock? My words you have quoted "It was a waste of good rock, and so I fully support the addition of a few bolts to that climb." refer (quite clearly I think) to the addition of bolts (by the FA) to Joyeux Noel. Have you climbed that climb?
And since you seem interested in my climbing, no, I haven't climbed DJ, granite slabs in Aussie or North America. So what. It doesn't change my opinion that underbolting sport climbs to increase their quality (for want of a better word) is a rather selfish position to adopt and smacks to me of ego-building more than a desire to create a 'memorable moment' for someone else. It couldn't have been for you as you rapped the line, knew the ground coming up was easier climbing yada yada yada.
31 March 2011 - 5:30pm
#16
7 bolts in a 50m pitch doesn't sound fun or safe to me.
And it is contrived trying to make sport climbs 'adventurous' by underbolting them. An underbolted sport climb is not an 'adventurous' route, it is just an 'underbolted sport climb'.
If you want to open adventurous climbs, go open a trad line somewhere.
What utter bollix Andesite go climb in the world famous Verdon, Yosemite or even the Darrens or Twin Streams and you'll find very adventurous bolted world class climbs. Bolts can be far apart and the climb still safe it just depends on the climb. Variety i.e. (safe bolted, adventurous bolted, mixed and trad) is one of the aspects of rock climbing which makes the experience truely great.
1 April 2011 - 8:07am
#17
What utter bollix Andesite go climb in the world famous Verdon, Yosemite or even the Darrens or Twin Streams and you'll find very adventurous bolted world class climbs. Bolts can be far apart and the climb still safe it just depends on the climb. Variety i.e. (safe bolted, adventurous bolted, mixed and trad) is one of the aspects of rock climbing which makes the experience truely great.
All the routes I've climbed in the Darrans have either had no bolts, or enough bolts.
As to "adventurous bolted world class climbs" - how many of these were established ground up?
Sure bolts can be far apart and still ensure a safe experience. Equally they can be far apart and be an unsafe experience. As you say, it depends on the terrain. Steep, direct lines - bolts far apart is probably ok. However Kingston is not steep so this doesn't seem applicable. It takes experience to get a bolting job done right. How much experience does the FA have at bolting? Is it not conceivable that he got it a bit wrong?
Anyway, until I go climb the route, I don't know how justified the re-bolt job is.
But I stand by my opinion that rap-bolting something to scare others is lame.
29 March 2011 - 1:57pm
#18
I did DJ Da Generous about a month back and can't remember the bolting being particularly scary. They were there when needed. The runout sections were probably the best part of the climb.
I can understand an 18/19 leader getting a bit sketched out, but once they give it a try and realise the runout moves are considerably easier than moves above a bolt, they will get that wonderful feeling of facing and overcoming there fears. As long as the rock doesn't explode and send them on complimentary scenic flight, which is always a possibility when climibing choss... i mean schist... Everyone knows whippers are cool anyway.
How will they feel now when they check the guide, 7 bolts, take 10 draws to be safe and then find themselves 3/4 the way up with no draws left and 3 bolts until the top. I bet they will love downclimbing to backclean draws.
To be honest i don't really care about this particular line being retroed but i thought the done thing was to consult the first ascensionist before doing so.
If it's too runout, don't climb it.
29 March 2011 - 8:05pm
#19
I love these yarns, the bold pioneer with two bolts and a bit of dog chain in his pocket out to create a classic nightmare for those who follow the route with no beta. First, the route is top roped and rehearsed. Then, the bolts are positioned, equally spaced of course, so that the climber will just miss hitting the ground so long as the belayer is attentive. Of course, it is their own problem (and St. Johns) if they pull rope and blow the clip. These routes are not ground up ascents, Bachar-Yerian style. These routes are a joke perpetrated by the first ascentionist and they are generally un-worthy of repetition.
29 March 2011 - 8:13pm
#20
These routes are not ground up ascents, Bachar-Yerian style. These routes are a joke perpetrated by the first ascentionist and they are generally un-worthy of repetition.
Heh, I can think of quite a number of these spread across the Port Hills, almost all of them with one of two FA names.....
30 March 2011 - 8:20pm
#22
The way you described top down FA's is pretty much how the routes in the Lakes district have been put up, but unworthy of repetition, I think not?
I don't think you get it :-(
30 March 2011 - 5:59pm
#23
It's hard to do on sight ground up first ascents on much of our rock.
Mr Plug - I assume you are in total outrage that someone has retro bolted your line? It wasn't clear from your post.
Nick - your original post is very a very erudite commentary on the state of play but the thing a few people may level at you would be your possible hypocrisy with retro bolting of natural pro routes around Wanaka
30 March 2011 - 6:31pm
#24
It's hard to do on sight ground up first ascents on much of our rock.
Mr Plug - I assume you are in total outrage that someone has retro bolted your line? It wasn't clear from your post.
Nick - your original post is a very erudite commentary on the state of play but the thing a few people may level at you could be your possible hypocrisy with retro bolting of natural pro routes around Wanaka
*strut*
31 March 2011 - 8:09am
#25
Someone censored my post! It was obvious cragrat made no mention of my posts... come on, lighten up.
1 April 2011 - 7:35am
#26
It's hard to do on sight ground up first ascents on much of our rock.
Yes and no I've done loads of ground ups this year on solid and loose rock. The hardest part is taking the first step just get out there and do it. Pick your climb well for you abilities you can tell a lot about a climb from the ground - if it looks like a horror show it probably will be one. If you can't do a move decide weather you should aid it i.e. if your on the 3rd pitch of the last pitch and it's getting dark. Back off if things get too dangerous for you or your belayer. That's important, the thing that scares me most about ground ups is belaying them, not climbing them there's often loose rock, the belayer must wear a helmet. But you don't know if it'll go unless you try :-)
1 April 2011 - 7:48am
#27
Yes and no I've done loads of ground ups this year on solid and loose rock.
How many bolts did you place on lead?
31 March 2011 - 6:04am
#28
good point Ratty. I got very outraged with myself for retrobolting my own trad rtes, when i get over the outrage (it's taken yrs) I will no doubt chop my bolts & get outraged again.
What I have noticed on these climbs are that for all the talk of wannabe trad climbers they now get repeated consistently & stay clean.
31 March 2011 - 12:57pm
#29
In the 2oo8 Guide the second pitch has 9 bolts.
I personally don't know of any change. perhaps you should check it out before getting uposet.
G man who keeps tabs on updates for the Guide is in China. In June when he is back you'd be able to contact him and find out details on if there are any changes and by whom, if you are bothered
31 March 2011 - 12:58pm
#30
Ps don't tar me with that brush!
31 March 2011 - 7:53pm
#31
Who is this legendary figure anyway? Or, should I say total scum. Is he/she not proud of their work. Their tireless pursuit to rid NZ (or at least Kingston) of dodgy routes. Washing the sins of the "un-clean" and of those who put most of their bolts in the wrong place.
Who is this rebel with a cause. This savior of crusty old farts who prefer flat belay stances, clean rock and quality top anchors. What a bastard (or wench)! Sacrificing their Saturday afternoon to ruin somebodies idea of the perfect head game.
Perhaps the selfless looser has a cohort in crime, too. A co-conspirator who held the rope for the perpetrator to mark the best location for the bolts in the first instance. They might have even witnessed a quality bolting job (I hope), and participated in the process of properly brushing clean the whole route and not just specific holds needed for the quick and dirty first ascent. Heck, they probably even had other tools like a saw and secatures so that the track was pleasant on approach.
Who are these un-wanted predators trying to create quality crags for the rest of us schmucks?
31 March 2011 - 9:21pm
#32
note that some people want 3 extra bolts on routes such as dave's arete at paynes. Same sort of rationale...
edit - i'd be interested in who (if it has actually happened) did the retrobolting
if they're too ashamed to front then.... hmmm... interesting... especially if they went and did it without consulting the first ascencionist.
1 April 2011 - 9:22am
#33
April Fools!!! Has this actually happened??? My understanding is the information pluggie has received is from Mr Teenwolf who apparently just herd someone talking about it. Give Teenwolf a keg of beer at we might get some sense out of him!!
Aside from if the route needed retro-bolting or not or if it actually happened, consult with the first ascentionst if they are alive is mandatory in my opinion! I would be pissed is someone came and retro-bolted my new sport route without telling me my route is a F*&^ing horror show with badly placed bolts!!
Dave.
1 April 2011 - 4:00pm
#35
Keep plugging it's all good. For the record i was not being specific about your route as a horror show, i have reserved my decision on DJ until i climb it again!
Hey if you want dog chain go to Leo's wall at Gorge Road, endless supply!!!!
5 April 2011 - 9:31am
#36
So just wondering when indoor bolting become the norm and outdoor bolting 'like it's a trad route' was considered contrived???
Climbing started outdoors! this is the norm and only placing bolts with good stances or good holds is the proper way to bolt in my opinion. The goal of bolting is to make the climb as safe as reasonably possible depending on the terrian. It is not supposed to be bolted to give u the warm fuzzies the entire way, risking a z clip every time. If u take a massive wipper on a wild route it makes for an awesome story! I know this because I have taken several whippers on trad this year (up to 10m) and I have some great stories (& no injuries).
How often do you actually hear about someone breaking a leg or something? It's pretty rare. over 90% of accidents are caused by human error, either by being too complacent with the basics or not using safe communication or systems. Driving and walking to and from the crags or the changeover from climbing to abseiling / lowering are by far the most dangerous parts of climbing because it dosen't 'seem' dangerous. It's all about real risk vs percieved risk. (I can confirm these odds as i'm an outdoor instructor by trade and hear about most the climbing related accidents in the North island.) Most accidents happen when your not expecting them. Did u know that climbing walls have less insurance to pay than bowling alleys!
Anyways, back to bolting, bolts are not meant to be placed every 1.5m like in the gym so u feel like your on top-rope the entire time. Bolts placed every 1.5m inside a gym is only done so management have less paper work to fill out when newbies start. If u started bolting routes like this you would have about 33 bolts for a 50m pitch, costing about $560 per route (Retail) + $50 for a 5 tonne safe working load anchor. Even at Wholesale rates it would still cost about $280 in total. I've put up about 20 routes this summer, 10 are bolted and the thought of spending three grand on ten routes is horrendous. Not to mention the gastly eyesore all that stainless steel would look like on the cliffs!
Imagine if Arapalies was Retro bolted like this, 4000 climbs? give or take, would mean about 250,000 bolts costing about 2 million dollers! Obviously Araps is 95% trad but you might be 'one of those people' who believes cracks should be bolted, then this would be a fair accessment on the costs.
How about instead of lowering the route to meet your standards you raise your standards to meet the route. If it's too hard physically or mentally you train for the route then come back to it when your a better climber. U destroy the epic-ness of a route when u retro bolt it. Imagine if all of Roland fosters routes had 3 times as many bolts, They would lose thier mojo and instead of being a defining moment in your climbing career when you can finally say 'i've done a Roland Foster route!' you would say 'I ticked another grade bla bla bla, can't remember the name, who put it up or anything vivid about it. Oh well time to find a harder one'.
If anyone put extra bolts in any of my routes I would put chop them immediately then find out where they lived and glue on as many large protruding metal things as i could find onto thier car or house and see how they like it. Ever hear of head pointing? You can always 2nd a route if u don't want to lead it or top-rope the hard / scary bits over and over untill your happy to do it or happy to leave it for another day. The key is making an informed rational choice wether u want to push your comfort zone and hopefully become a better climber or leave it for when you've got more confidence.
As the late great Wolfgang said 'the best muscle you can develop for climbing is the one in your head.' I can only boulder v4/5 but can keep up with climbers who can boulder v9 cause I spend more time training my mind. In my opinion The joys of climbing are dramatically increased with a calm and peaceful mind in the face of adversity.
Sorry my rant is a bit long but it's raining so I can't climb the rocks right now.
Hope my words can help open the minds from those who aren't getting their warm fuzzys on the real walls. Don't want to offend, just inform. Peace out, Monkeyman.
6 April 2011 - 1:19pm
#37
Imagine if Arapalies was Retro bolted like this, 4000 climbs? give or take, would mean about 250,000 bolts costing about 2 million dollers!
Assuming an average of 62.5 bolts per pitch...
6 April 2011 - 6:38pm
#38
Imagine if Arapalies was Retro bolted like this, 4000 climbs? give or take, would mean about 250,000 bolts costing about 2 million dollers!
Assuming an average of 62.5 bolts per pitch...
You mean, "per climb", don't you? I know Araps isn't all that high, but I thought there was some multi-pitch there....
6 April 2011 - 8:53pm
#39
correct... plenty of 2-3 pitch climbs
7 April 2011 - 12:27pm
#40
Can't put the bolts too far away for the newbies that want to clip the next bolt before they move thier harness past the last one ;p
I was assuming 60 odd bolts for 100m of climbing sounds about right with that theory, lol.
13 April 2011 - 9:45am
#42
I hear you were passed that way on the weekend. Did you stop by and check if Joan is a beast and did the 22 to the right with 13 bolts that shares the anchors thinking it was 18, or if DJ has indeed been rebolted?
I have never done the second pitch because of the rock quality but may have to pop out on the weekend if you haven't already.
glad you like South Wye. Awesome rock if it's dry!
Sally
14 April 2011 - 2:06pm
#44
I will ask him about where you went too. I think there is so much to do there.
Half way boulder...Hmm Will have to find out the goss. I've been off bouldering since tearing my hamstring badly. But new lines might inspire a return.
Very poor form. It seems unlikely the first ascentionist was consulted prior to these additions. DJ seemed safe enough as it was. I can only imaginge that the extra bolts will take away from the enjoyment of the climb, and probably add to the rope drag.
Sounds like the nearby christmas wall has suffered some retro-bolting aswell.
Perhaps this retrobolter should stick to toproping in future if the existing bolting is to scary for his liking.
Anyone want some free hangers???