Kawakawa Bay Crag
22 September 2005 - 9:51pm
Had a chat with a fellow in the gym in Taupo the other day and hes developed a crag at Kawakawa Bay near Kinloch. Take the walking track from the beach front at Kinloch and wander over to Kawakawa, about an hour, and they have put a cairn on the track where a side track takes you upto the crag, left hand side of the bay looking out to the lake. Apparently its about 30 m tall and theres 5 or so crack lines upto grade 18 and a bolted 17. Bryce from Wharepapa has been in there and says one of the routes a 16 crack line is quality. Some of the routes need a bit of a clean, I am looking forward to having a look myself, sounds good and would be great if there was some traffic out there. :wink:
17 October 2005 - 7:33am
#4
Who are the friggin idiots that are bolting like that still - chain links, galvanised.
Could someone go round and rough those idiots up.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR THAT SORT OF WORKMANSHIP THESE DAYS
17 October 2005 - 8:07am
#5
exactly!
I havent been to the crag since the bolted routes went in so i'm dissapointed to hear that "ignimbrite ethics" have been rearing their ugly head again. By ignimbrite ethics i mean using shody gear to get as many routes done as quickly as possible rather than concentrating on getting quality gear 1st up. Otherwise it'll just need rebolting 10 years down the track. I assume that they've been using galv trubolts which would explain the lack of glue visible. I pray they aren't just driveins....shudder.
Somebody neds to have a word with young Matt about the gear he's been using...
17 October 2005 - 8:22am
#6
Isn't that "Bryce ethics?" or 1980's ethics
17 October 2005 - 8:41am
#7
Bryce isnt the only culprit..
17 October 2005 - 8:59am
#8
I pray they aren't just driveins....shudder.
What's wrong with carrots? tee hee
Seriously, stainless isn't that expensive. Do it right, especially near water.
17 October 2005 - 9:01am
#9
JimFix wrote:
What's wrong with carrots? tee hee
quote]nothing if you're a rabbit
17 October 2005 - 6:01pm
#10
Matt who?
We would be quite happy to take him aside, explain a little physics, chemistry and basic principles and show him how to bolt properly if we knew who it was.
Sounds like the crag could have had some adventurous trad routes on spaced gear in solid rock, or at least proper bolts. Whoever it is, if you kow who, make them stop before more rubbish gets created.
18 October 2005 - 7:37am
#12
Matt Thom and Stephen King have done most of the bolting as far as I know. I've meet Matt before, but dont know Stephen.
They dont look like tru bolts or expansion bolts as they have been whacked in there.
:evil: :evil:
18 October 2005 - 6:52pm
#14
A lynching isnt needed but education is. Bolting rhyolite is easy. Pick a solid piece of rock. Use stainless steel expansion bolts (trubolts, say 10mm or 12mm x 90mm) with stainless hangers, nuts and split washers is the easiest option. Best to find a small (basketball sized) rock somewhere, drill a few holes in it and practise with galv bolts before hand. Otherwise use stainless ringbolt glueins using hilti re-500 glue or epcon ceramic 6 expoy. These take a bit more care in terms of hole cleaning and so on do do a good job. Probably not much difference between the 2 price wise. I havent bought ss expansion bolts for a while so i'm not sure of the cost. DOes any one know of a good source in the Taupo/Rotorua area. Martyn, where do you get yours?
18 October 2005 - 7:14pm
#15
Hi Craig
The guy at Blackwoods in Rotorua who used to give us a reasonable deal moved on a while ago and I haven't got any SS Trubolts for myself since then.
Stephen King; isn't that a perfect name for someone if he was going to be putting in some nightmare horror bolts!
18 October 2005 - 7:19pm
#16
As far as bolts go wouldn't it be great if someone like the NZAC or one of their Regional Areas sourced the right gear at wholesale then would sell it on to climbers at the same cost so that more routes could be put up for less expense. This might encourage some to do the job properly. (These two aren't the only ones using galvanised bolts still)
28 October 2005 - 11:45am
#18
Nicely done!
Definitely a place I'm wanting to check out...
28 October 2005 - 5:14pm
#19
In response to Cragrat.
Bryce's reasons for using impacted galvanised bolts in the 90's around Wharepapa were perfectly valid for that rock and at the time. If you have ever drilled a crag like Bailey's for example and more than likely the others you would know that the stuff which comes out is liquidised mud. We all know that any sort of glue doesn't stick to mud very well. However, if this crag at Kawawawa is Rhyolite then either up to date SS trubolts or SS glue-ins are the only methods up to standard.
There are different standards of galvanised trubolts, from very cheap ones with tiny galvanised expansion sleeves to high quality ones from the likes of Ramset with SS expansion sleeves. Be interesting to see what has actually been used here when we pull them out.
Using cheap quality, thin, unrated galvanised chain is, I think, a paractice which needs ending. If you are going to put in gear it should be quality
20 June 2006 - 8:17am
#20
Boys :D those bolts are bomber, really. The water comment is fairly unintelligent don't you think considering it rains on most crags?? Sure if it was by the sea you'd have a point. Just go climbing and enjoy your life, squabbling on the internet is more likely to kill you than those bolts. 8)
20 June 2006 - 9:51am
#21
Boys those bolts are bomber, really. The water comment is fairly unintelligent don't you think considering it rains on most crags?? Sure if it was by the sea you'd have a point. Just go climbing and enjoy your life, squabbling on the internet is more likely to kill you than those bolts.
boy now that is just plain unintelligent.... one of the points of this site is to give quality information about routes /crags etc so that we can go climbing AND enjoy a long life... not get hurt or dead repeating a badly equipped route, I am bloody amazed that anyone is puting up routes wih chain links these days, there is simply no reason for it, thats not squabbling its common sense.
By all means enjoy your short and painful life climbing on shit gear, just dont advise others to do the same
20 June 2006 - 11:36am
#22
However the chain link hanger by the flake, I used it to sling off, is flexing open, the weld making the end loop of the chain, the bit you put a biner into, is not joined up and under not even full body weight there is a bit of daylight showing. Crikey! :shock:
Precisely the reason NOT to use chain hangers!
It's 2006 people not 1985. Use the best technology there is and we wont have to worry about replacing the bolts further down the track.
20 June 2006 - 1:15pm
#23
Yep chain links of the cheap galvinised variety are not rated and open under pretty light loads - given that the stanard 8mm chain used has not to the best of my knowledge fail;ed during use. It seem okay to use in an anchor as the load is shared but I would be wary of just clipping in to one link of the anchor. Often the weak link in the system may be the shackle (if used).
I am continually amazed that people don't carry with them in their pack a small wrench to tighten loose items of hardware found on cliffs. The number of requests we get in the book at Paynes/Hangdog that says bolt x on climb y is loose can you tighten it... it is one thing we are not there to do run after people !!!
And the number who think a small bit of surface rust on a not or bolt is going to lead to instant terminal disaster for them. Sorry off track a bit.
20 June 2006 - 1:42pm
#24
i'm confused? are you for or against chain?
I agree with the spanner. I always carry a little shifter in my pack to tighten nuts.
20 June 2006 - 2:13pm
#25
What happens when you use this style of bolting...
Years ago I belayed a friend who was climbing one of Bryces infamously bolted climbs at Wharepapa 20m. He was placing wires over carrots, unfortunately he broke a hold of at the top and fell. He was very lucky as he ripped the non-glued bolt below him out of the rock bending it in half and in the end fell 15 meters without injury. I was very lucky as I didn't recieve any rope burn. At one point it looked like his legs were about to be turned to mush as he fell passed (just missing) a ledge. The second to last bolt (which held) was around 2-3 meters below the top bolt and he was ~3 meters above that about to top out.
21 June 2006 - 10:56am
#26
Against use as hangers - so so on anchors.
4 July 2006 - 5:15pm
#28
It was asked if I preferred chain or not earlier - I guess my preferred anchor set up is the one we are using more and more at Paynes which is a hybrid based on the Fixe belay station.
http://www.fixeclimbing.com/eng/productos.php?id_cat=10&id_prod=77&PHPSE...
shit sorry about that - can't post a pic
We get a reasobale cost by getting a ring - about $5/6 and linking withh standard chain and rapide to a second bolt. So it does use chain - though sometimes we buy stainless chain (for certain localities). Thank for everyones contributions who make this possible
4 July 2006 - 5:18pm
#29
5 July 2006 - 7:38am
#30
Ok... I've brought this up before, but here goes again: How many of "Team Know it All- Central North Island" has tried to contact the fella doing most of the developing at this crag and offered to demonstrate the "right way" to bolt? I can't stand arm chair warriors.... this guy is obviously willing to put in the time and labor (as well his own money) to create a new climbing area. I can only assume, given a proper 1 on 1 lesson or two, he would place all the rest of his bolts up to "industry standard."
I agree with "en"... one of the points of this site is share experiance and give quality information on routes/ crags so that people can climb as safe as possible. Sometimes it needs to go one step further though. Everyone on this site seems to agree.... glue ins are the way to go. Everyone ALSO agrees they are the easiest to f*ck up. I think that rather than whinging from behind a keyboard, some of you folks aught to do more than TALK about your bolting ethics. Offer to help the brother out and their will be one more motivated route developer out there with a positive bolting practice.
5 July 2006 - 7:52am
#31
Actually i've had several words to him in a non confrontational "why did you bolt it like this, instead of that" kinda way. His arguement came down to money and that he had talked to Bryce and Bryce reckoned galv chain driveins were ok. Plus he's Australian which is the home of the drivein carrot bolt.
For this crag glueins are not the only "way to go". Stainless expansion bolts will work great as the rock is hard and they are fairly foolproof to place. But in the end it mainly came down to money. You can probably get 3 galv driveins for the price of one stainless job.
There also tends to be an attitude of i've done all the work cleaning the route so i'll bolt it how i like; and if i'd used SS then there'd only be half the number of routes there are now.
JD I dont think this is ever going to b a world class crag. Sure it's a nice spot to visit and has a couple of very nice crack climbs but it takes more than that to be world class.
5 July 2006 - 10:50am
#32
I have been out at kawa kawa bay and seen all the gear that is being placed. to me it is fine. the rock is not hokey pokey ignimbyte and is solid. if you dont like the bolting style out there dont climb the bolted routes and start sending the magnificant trad routes. most routes at the main crag are at least 1star routes. and once again if you dont like the way that this crag is being developed go out and give steve a hand and bolt your own routes. there is massive potental for sport and trad routes if u and prepared to stop winging and go out there and do it.
By the way that project that jd was talking has been sent by steve and goes at about 24 or 25
a guide for the area will be coming out some time in the near future
5 July 2006 - 5:22pm
#34
So how do I get in touch with Steve then?
If his number is listed, then you only have one of two possibilities
5 July 2006 - 5:37pm
#35
i dont have his number but i don think it's either of those.
6 July 2006 - 10:18am
#36
i will contact steve tonyt and see if he doesnt mind me posting his number up on da web.
so r u guys keen do cleaning some routes of your own?
6 July 2006 - 1:25pm
#38
i dont think you'd get any money to replace crap bolts put in last year. This has been tried in the past, where someone bolted badly 1st time round then applied to the NZAC to fix his mistakes a few months later. You might get money for adding decent belays to some of the trad routes that rely on the dodgy bush at the top. Total Trade in town sell 100x12mm SS dynabolts for $6.95 +GST a pop.
6 July 2006 - 1:30pm
#39
Total Trade in town sell 100x12mm SS dynabolts for $6.95 +GST a pop.
Total Trade must just be another name for Mitre10 or Bunnings!
Talk to your local Ramset representative. He might not be able to give you the same price I got quoted down here in Chch, but it should still be better than $7/bolt.
Edited to add link
6 July 2006 - 2:01pm
#40
It's expensive i know, but that's what you get in a small town.
6 July 2006 - 2:03pm
#41
It's expensive i know, but that's what you get in a small town.
yes, but if it makes you feel any better, my point was that that is exactly what Mitre10 and Bunnings are charging here too :shock:
6 July 2006 - 2:23pm
#42
Yeah. Just rang ramset in rotovegas. they didnt even have any SS expansion bolts of any variety! I'm surprised that Mitre10 and bunnings even stock SS bolts, they dont in this part of the world (neither do craters, placemakers etc etc). In fact Total Trade is the only place in town that does. It's a cool shop anyhow if you're into tools.
6 July 2006 - 2:26pm
#43
Yeah. Just rang ramset in rotovegas. they didnt even have any SS expansion bolts of any variety! I'm surprised that Mitre10 and bunnings even stock SS bolts, they dont in this part of the world (neither do craters, placemakers etc etc). In fact Total Trade is the only place in town that does.
Ouch, that sucks! Looks like mail order may be the cheapest way to go then.
7 July 2006 - 12:02pm
#44
i can not get a hold of steve at the moment as i think he is away on holiday. When he gets back i will speak to him and see if i can convert his bolting ways. I absolutly agree that he should be bolting with the latest tecnolegy with the knowlege that if we bolt it "new school" they should last longer and remove the fear of not wanting to fall on gear which some do not trust. that way all are happy at the end of the day.
The thing at the moment though is that steve has been doing every thing out of his own pocket and has spent alot of his own money on this crag of his.
What would you guys think of maybe placing a donation box for bolts at the taupo climbing wall? i would be able to manage it as i am working there.
This way steve can get the more expensive gear and not be even more out of pocket.
7 July 2006 - 2:49pm
#45
lack of money is NO excuse for putting in bad gear !!!! How many times do you here of accidents in industry, recreation et all which could have been prevented if someone had spent the extra dollars on making something safe. Saying if you dont like the bolts dont climb it is absurd, stupid and ignorant, because many folks dont have the experience or skills to judge whether permanent gear is substandard, if you put up shit gear on an indoor climbing wall youd get hung if someone cratered after it failed.. so it is my opinion that bolting outdoors is the same.
When you bolt and promote a climbing area you are literally asking others to trust ther lives to your anchors, everyone bolting routes has a RESPONSIBILITY to get it right, safe, first time, if you cant be sure the anchors are good then keep it secret, dont publicise and no one will be worried
new route developers need to accept that bolting IS expensive to do properly, how good are you going to feel about your fab new route when some unfortunate climber gets carted off to hospital or the morgue cause an anchor failed?
The cheapest way to get ss bolts is to contact ramset or hilti directly (there will be agents in the bigger centres) if you have a mate with a trade account (builder, engineer etc) they can prob get them very cheap. We got 500 ss 10mm x 90mm bolts from ramset via a trade account at $2.50 each.
the other thing is to organise the locals and form a fund raising vehicle (like a club) produce your own guides and use the $ to buy gear. We do this in Wanaka and consequently have a continuous stash of high quality gear for new routes and retro bolting.
i would glady help but am a mere 100km away so thats unlikely
good luck, dont mean to be too harsh but this is a serious issue
7 July 2006 - 2:55pm
#46
^^^^^^ WELL SAID!
Might I modify one thing though!?
if you can't be sure the anchors are good then keep it secret, don't publicise and fix or remove the achors asap
....unless it is some godforsaken backcountry chossheap that is unlikely to see another person for another couple decades or longer....
7 July 2006 - 3:41pm
#47
The thing at the moment though is that steve has been doing every thing out of his own pocket and has spent alot of his own money on this crag of his.
This way steve can get the more expensive gear and not be even more out of pocket.
This way steve can get the more expensive gear and not be even more out of pocket.
hang on. you mean establish a "steve donation box"? I dont like the sound of that. Lets not forget that steve doesnt own the crag, sure he's put in a lot of effort and good on him, but why should I subsidise him just cos he cant afford it? It's not like he's being made to bolt the crag and doesnt have a choice about using crap bolts. Maybe it'd be better to bolt less routes properly than many poorly.
7 July 2006 - 8:23pm
#48
sorry about that bad wording. establishing a taupo bolting fund for developing crags in the taupo area is what should be done. And the bolting issue. That was bad wording again. the bolts are to what steve says are bomber and are safe. he belives that they are fine and work well and are safe in the rock type.
Plese do not jump down my throat i am just trying to voice steves views on this issue.
7 July 2006 - 9:50pm
#49
Kane, sorry, not meaning to jump down your throat. A local bolt fund could be a good if we can find a cheap source then cost wont be an issue...
The issue is that the bolts might be "ok" now, but what about in 10 years. SS ones will last a lot longer and then we wont have to worry about rebolting again in 10 years. I'd be happy to show you the condition of some of the 10-15 year old galv driveins we replaced at Kinloch a while back (most of which came out with a small spanner).
7 July 2006 - 10:06pm
#50
totaly agree with you there. bolts should be there for the long term and thnks for replacing those it has made the after school crag a much more friendly place to chill out at. next time i get i contact with steve i wil try to convert him to place pro that will be there for the long term. they are safe for the moment but by what you have just said they sound dangerous for the long term.
i wil speak to rose(my boss and manager of the wall) about a donation box and seting up a local bolting fund. i will also see if she can order in hangers. i will be able to get them for wholesale plus gst. i think marvelox sell some. i will sus out the prices of those on monday at work. do you know haw much fixxe hangers cost?
Have you been out to kawa kawa yet?
It's more like a 1.5- 2 hour walk or 45-60mins on a mountain bike.
Life is short, art is long, opportunity fleeting, experimenting dangerous, reasoning difficult