Grading Gripes? Overgrading/Undergrading? Comments?
27 November 2006 - 10:12am
One thing you always hear at the crag is about grades.Certainly as someone who produces a Guidebook I always get regaled about the Grades of certain routes.
It really is about consensus but imagine if we didn't have that debate...so
Are there climbs in Golden Bay that you think are just plain wrong? Overgraded or undergraded. Personally I think anything under about 14 here tends to be wildly overgraded mainly as we don't really know /care about those low grades. I find the Port Hills (and Araps) bring a more realistic position on these.
I am just wanting a bit of feedback for future reprints of the Golden Bay Climbs
If you make a comment I think it is important to look at other climbs in the same grade and consider if it is much harder than and comment accordingly...etc etc . Also as regard what might be the benchmark climbs in a Grade bracket.So a bit of justification.
Eg Temples of Stone is probably the benchmark 18 at Paynes given that, probably Fat Cats (19) on the Tenuite is overgraded. I certainly find it easier to climb than Stone Symposium (18 version).
Feel free to comment here or on the Paynes Blog at http://tinyurl.com/y8zu4b
Cheers
27 November 2006 - 10:26am
#2
Paynes/Golden Bay really.
You have been there haven't you? :shock:
27 November 2006 - 11:35am
#3
You have been there haven't you? :shock:
You say that as if not having been there would be a sin :wink:
27 November 2006 - 11:41am
#4
Unlike Holmes Bay it is on most peoples list of places to go when travelling in NZ
27 November 2006 - 11:47am
#5
Unlike Holmes Bay it is on most peoples list of places to go when travelling in NZ
True, but then again, I never implied that everyone "has to" go there....just those of us that have a crack fetish :lol:
27 November 2006 - 12:05pm
#6
You have been there haven't you?
many times!
just clarifying what you were meaning....
never been to holmes bay though :wink:
27 November 2006 - 12:52pm
#7
Its pretty OBVIOUS...that CR is meaning consistency at Paynes.
Benchmark 25's:
Make my day - No doubt about it. (as opposed to Feeling lucky, which is I think is a tad easier..)
Responsible Lunges - quite stiff, but not above the grade.
Skiing off a convex slope - 25 yep - could not have really be a 26!
Daves Arete, NOT 25...its only 24 man(I on sighted it expecting the worst...)...people need to toughen up! Is it because of the potential whipper? Try taking some off the crux of Make my day...way scarier.
Killing time...maybe a little soft, the top is easy.
Body Nazi's - hard to on sight (nice one CR!) - but yeah its 25.
Infidel...hmmm thats 24 eh CR? I think that might be 25.
i can't think of any others at the moment...remind me!
21 March 2010 - 10:57am
#8
Benchmark 25's... Responsible Lunges - quite stiff, but not above the grade. Skiing off a convex slope - 25 yep - could not have really be a 26!
Those are two that i don't think we'll ever get a consensus on! I couldn't believe that RespLunges got more than a 24, while I felt that Skiing was a benchmark 26, albeit only for one move. Of course, it's been six+ years since I've been on either...
27 November 2006 - 12:58pm
#9
Infidel...hmmm thats 24 eh CR? I think that might be 25.
I was going to give it 22 - after all i KNEW how to climb it from working it and thats what it felt like. Ah I still remember a young Nick Sutter rushing round to repeat it and getting spanked. He was a bit annoyed.
27 November 2006 - 1:07pm
#10
24 * Celluloid Heroes Globe Wall
24 *** Dave’s Arete Globe Wall
24 *** Dread Carefully Wall of Thugs
24 Feral fingers Top Hole
24 * Fridge Magnet Rhinoceros Wall
24 ** Golden Bay Connection Creese Wall
24 ** Gravity Globe Wall
24 * Intensive Scare Wall of Thugs
24 ** Jive Bombing Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall
24 * Juan Bautista Tomorrow Gully
24 * Mohichan Embankment
24 * Not given lightly Bo Peep Slab
24 Porkage Little Lost Wall
24 Red Tape Bo Peep Slab
24 Sex, lies and videotapes Wall of Thugs
24 Slaprobatics Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall
24 ** Subliminal Seducer Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall
24 * System of a Down Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall
24 * Te Rauparaha Embankment
24 * The Infidel Fortress
24 * Weetbix Heroes Globe Wall
27 November 2006 - 1:27pm
#11
24 * Celluloid Heroes Globe Wall - RAD
24 *** Dave’s Arete Globe Wall - RAD (and 24)
24 *** Dread Carefully Wall of Thugs RAD (2nd pitch - easy to get lost and end up on the 27!)
24 Feral fingers Top Hole - never tried
24 * Fridge Magnet Rhinoceros Wall - bouldery
24 ** Golden Bay Connection Creese Wall never tried
24 ** Gravity Globe Wall - RAD
24 * Intensive Scare Wall of Thugs never tried
24 ** Jive Bombing Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall never tried
24 * Juan Bautista Tomorrow Gully never tried
24 * Mohichan Embankment never tried
24 * Not given lightly Bo Peep Slab never tried
24 Porkage Little Lost Wall never tried
24 Red Tape Bo Peep Slab never tried
24 Sex, lies and videotapes Wall of Thugs never tried
24 Slaprobatics Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall never tried
24 ** Subliminal Seducer Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall never tried
24 * System of a Down Wall of Thugs-Fish Wall never tried
24 * Te Rauparaha Embankment never tried
24 * The Infidel Fortress 25! :)
24 * Weetbix Heroes Globe Wall - RAD
Seems a bit weird eh..i'm running out of 28's to do and haven't touched a lot of these 24's - having said that, sent nearly all the 22's,23's,25's, 27's.
A few more 26's to do- that Beast within (26) is CRACKER and I think you could say that its benchmark 26 (That and the charge?) - tried Berlin Wall a couple of years back and NEVER again (well...never say never ;) ) - it was NAILS - i shredded my tips for and three days couldn't climb! - 27?
Mea Culpa *** - benchmark Technical 27 - awesome.
27 November 2006 - 1:29pm
#12
I have had a couple of people who think Celluloid Heroes should be 23 not 24...
27 November 2006 - 2:22pm
#13
I thought that Body Nazis was towards the softer end of 25, but still not 24. As was Mea Culpa, I see it as the easiest 27 at Paynes Ford, (of the ones I have done)
Skiing, Responsible Lunges, and Daves Arete are easy 25s. I found Feeling Lucky.... harder than Make My Day. I do agree about the fact that the top of Make My Day is scarier than Daves Arete, I once took a whipper and did a half spin arse first into the wall, it hurt.
As for benchmarks, I would say
22 - Burly But Sensetive
23 - Send A Gorrilla
24 - Celluloid Heroes (is that the one one in from the arete?)
25-Feelin' Lucky Punk?
26 - yet to do one at paynes
27 - Electrocution. perhaps?
27 November 2006 - 2:48pm
#14
I thought that Body Nazis was towards the softer end of 25, but still not 24.
Most find it the harder of the routes on the wall and solid for the grade 25/Fr 7b
As for benchmarks, I would say
22 - Burly But Sensitive Go with the flow?
23 - Send A Gorrilla
24 - Celluloid Heroes (is that the one one in from the arete?) Yes
25- Feelin' Lucky Punk?
26 - yet to do one at paynes
27 - Electrocution. perhaps?
22 - Burly But Sensitive Go with the flow?
23 - Send A Gorrilla
24 - Celluloid Heroes (is that the one one in from the arete?) Yes
25- Feelin' Lucky Punk?
26 - yet to do one at paynes
27 - Electrocution. perhaps?
Thanks for the Feedback
Ton Snelder at the crux of Body Nazis
27 November 2006 - 4:33pm
#15
I used a small undercling and double took with my left rather than what he is doing in the photo at the crux. But yes I have spoken to people that found it harder, and on the same day I found Celluloid Heroes harder than what it seems most find it.
Go with the Flow would also be benchmark 22 for Paynes.
Does anybody else find Lost Soul at the little lost wall hard for 21?
Can't wait to be back.... only 32 sleeps
27 November 2006 - 4:42pm
#16
I always thought Elvis lives in Takaka was steep for 19 (may just cos i'm short)
Go with the Flow is classic 22, that and Midlife Crisis at the Bay are my 22 bench marks.
27 November 2006 - 4:47pm
#17
Elvis is 18....
do you mean stiff or steep?
A tad scary if one is shorter of stature
27 November 2006 - 9:07pm
#18
i meant hard for the grade. looking at my Paynes 1999 guide by Jeremy Butler (all the 23's or less) (yes out of date i know...) has it as 19+. I'd think it's a 19 rather than 18 for sure. Definitely scary if you're short.
28 November 2006 - 1:06am
#19
There's a "16" about two climbs left of Lost souls that I found really really hard. Elvis Lives... 18 but perhaps more technical than Temples, and still scary even if you have some height. Temples is my all time favortive route anywhere. I'd do it every time I go there, if it didn't always rain when I go to Paynes. I've moved back to Oz for the time being, so New Years should be fine :) The only routes at Paynes I never liked where, Bury me in a Y shaped Coffin, nasty fall from the 2nd? bolt and Terror, Ilness and Rebelion because I didn't work it out first go.
28 November 2006 - 8:58am
#20
There's a "16" about two climbs left of Lost souls that I found really really hard.
The leftmost one (Wrinkle) goes up wall to break then you have to grapple with a nose of rock sticking out to finish.
Then there is an 18, Candy Man and Jerry Garcia starting in almost the same place
28 November 2006 - 9:17am
#21
i meant hard for the grade. looking at my Paynes 1999 guide by Jeremy Butler (all the 23's or less) (yes out of date i know...) has it as 19+. I'd think it's a 19 rather than 18 for sure.
So how did you find Gobble, Gobble,Yum,Yum?
28 November 2006 - 9:27am
#22
gobble gobble yum yum gets maximum stars surely........ it rules! it's definately no harder than 19.
28 November 2006 - 9:35am
#23
No, I meant how did Craig find Elvis compared tp Gobble Gobble which is the benchmark 19 here ... in my view.
28 November 2006 - 9:56am
#24
GGYY is 19 for sure and a great climb. Elvis is not easier in my book. They are quite different styles, Elvis is thin /spaced and technical, GGYY is juggy and pumpy. Maybe if the bolts were better spaced on Elvis it wouldnt seem so hard. I reckon 19 for both.
28 November 2006 - 10:05am
#25
sniff..sob... I want to come home to Paynes for Xmas but can't... all these great climbs just begging for a bit of Team Mojo action.
Grades schmades just climb hard, have fun.
28 November 2006 - 10:16am
#26
Enjoy the snow shoeing :lol:
28 November 2006 - 11:17am
#27
There's a "16" about two climbs left of Lost souls that I found really really hard.
The leftmost one (Wrinkle) goes up wall to break then you have to grapple with a nose of rock sticking out to finish.
Then there is an 18, Candy Man and Jerry Garcia starting in almost the same place
Yeah Wrinkle is one I'm thinking of. While we're talking 16's Romancing The Stone seemed pretty stiff for what was a 15 in the old guide. Even for 16 it was pretty balancy. It almost seems sily to point out these "lower" grades but they're the one new climbers care about.
28 November 2006 - 11:23am
#28
Interestingly Forums in Australia think NZ Grades are quite soft especially in the lower grades and (while I tend to agree) I am interested in your views.
28 November 2006 - 11:38am
#29
18's up in blue mountains are just like here in my opinion. Lower down it seems different but so long as each area is consistent you can figure out where you're at pretty quick.
28 November 2006 - 3:02pm
#30
from memory all the routes i have climbed are desperate for the grade especially if i cruised them .... and anything i failed on is badly undergraded and at least 14 grades harder then the guide :P
28 November 2006 - 3:25pm
#31
Cheers Ed
I just want anything people think is out of line... Is Amino Pro 23 or 24 ?? for example
28 November 2006 - 3:46pm
#32
dunno but i reckon dread carefully is 23...
28 November 2006 - 4:23pm
#33
You are on record - is or was !!!
29 November 2006 - 12:43pm
#34
Passed on to me comments via email:
Upgrade:
Red Hand of Ulster 20
Trick or treat 21
Spotty Brit 24
Amino Pro 24
Downgrade:
Sausage time 17
Tongue in Groove 19
Rat up a drainpipe 19
Coup de grace 21
Supercharger 22
B.S
29 November 2006 - 1:36pm
#35
I agree with the upgrading of Spotty Brit and of Amino Pro
29 November 2006 - 1:51pm
#36
What about the downgrading- Tongue in Groove seems 19 might suit it better
29 November 2006 - 8:31pm
#37
Passed on to me comments via email:
Downgrade:
Sausage time 17
Is that the route near Bo Peep, up bhind the funny 14? 17 seems about right. It's a bit on the loose side too, but a really nice outing. Gets a recommended from me.
29 November 2006 - 8:46pm
#38
Its the second pitch - you womble up the 13 wrestle though some shrubbery and onward
1 December 2006 - 10:21am
#39
you womble up the 13 wrestle though some shrubbery and onward
It's a bit on the loose side too,
sounds like a classic, you guys need to get out more ....
1 December 2006 - 10:41am
#40
Hmmm in the fresh snow - friggin' cold and miserable. Alpine not cragging gears me thinks
1 December 2006 - 10:48am
#41
yup, tons of wet n cold down here, summer anyone? anywhere?
1 December 2006 - 10:52am
#42
I hear there is lots of ice in the Alta Basin
1 December 2006 - 10:54am
#43
However I am in need of sun too....
1 December 2006 - 10:57am
#44
Yes and it's sooo much fun!
1 December 2006 - 1:06pm
#45
Anyway this is off topic so lets keep this for Paynes grade gripes
1 February 2007 - 11:49am
#46
Mmmm the 23's
** Supercharger
* Rumplestiltskin
* Spotty Brit
*** Amino-Pro
** Feral Pakeha
*** High Voltage
* Master of Puppets
* Positive Energy
* Power Failure
*** Powerline
* Red-Lining To The Max
*** Send a Gorilla
*** Superconductor
** Gorgeous
* Go Side On
* The Darling Buds Of May
* Electric Sunroof
* Fraulein Foreskin
Black eyed Beauty
Project 1
*** 1080 and the Letter G
* La la land
* The Good,The Bad and the Dread
1 February 2007 - 12:01pm
#47
The infamous 22's
** Coup de Grace
** Flexestentialism
* No Fly Zone
Bob and Betty go Mating
** Rawhide
** Woop, Woop Pull Up
* Dr Gnarly and the Big Burn
Burn
* Old
Slash
What’s an eco-tourist
** Burly but Sensitive
** Electricorp Production
Stamp Collection
** All I ever wanted was Dialysis
* Lights Out
* Short Circuit
** You’re either Dead or you’re Not
Misery
Lapsed Catholics
Tombstone Blues
* Big Sharks at Night
* Happy Motoring
The Immaculate Deception
* Granulated Chicken Booster
* The Beast from the Undergrowth
** The Grounds the Limit
* Flow Motion
Sexually Transmitted Pain relief
Van Clan
Fancy a shag on the beach
* Primal Scream
Jericho
** Go With The Flow
* Clutch-Cargo
Down to the River
Unknown
Oogga Chaakka
Soul shakedown party
Bicep d’Elan
* Java Jive
** Typhoon
American Spoon
* The Great NZ Clobbering machine
1 February 2007 - 12:05pm
#48
Most of the 21's
** Vexatious Litigant
* Last Call For Flight 911
Serac Attack
* Something Precious
* Sweet Dreams
Forgotten
* Rocking Mickey
** Make my grumpy cat dance
* Six-Foot Thruster
* The Fat Fight Back
Concrete Rain
* Neptunes Gift
Bury me in a Y shaped coffin
* Lost Soul
Checkmate
** Bilbos Great Adventure
** No Rest For The Wicked
* Tales by Firelight
* All the Kings Horses
* Savage Honeymoon
* Feeding the Rat
** As Good as it gets
In your face
* Rumpy Pumpy
* Shotgun Therapy
* The Shag who spied me
** R for Ranger, D for Danger
* Seafire
* Stone Symposium
Fluffy Duck
Wreck Tangle
* Taonga
* Trick or Treat
** Burn, Hollywood, Burn
* Wilt
1 February 2007 - 12:15pm
#49
Yup, those 20's
* Bang Your Head
* Fearless Vampire Killers
Destiny Laughed
From Mystery into Mystery
* Lollapalooza
* The what of a what said Pooh
Calling Ruthie
* Super Blonde
** Voice of the Beehive
Trust me
** Rat up a Drainpipe
A Pregnant Paws
Shadows at Sunset
* Hymenicegirl
* Joker man
* Popy Mifmos Goes Direct
* Three Poms & a Swedish Farafetta
* Jimmy the torn piece ....
Spitfire
** Headplant
** Hi, I’m Doctor Terrific
** Loose Unit
Walk the line
* Astral Weaks
** Going Going Gone
* Golden Bells
2 February 2007 - 3:21am
#50
The infamous 22's
the 22s at paynes rock, definitely a fun way to spend a summer....
** Coup de Grace - pumpy and fair
** Flexestentialism - soft if you´re a gym boy (or girl)
* No Fly Zone - yuk, but fair for the grade
Bob and Betty go Mating - wobbly stones
** Rawhide - yup
** Woop, Woop Pull Up - technical - a thinky climb. No harder than 22, probably not 21
* Dr Gnarly and the Big Burn - dunno
Burn - nice
* Old - soft, but super cool
Slash - dunno
What’s an eco-tourist - rad, deserves more traffic
** Burly but Sensitive - easiest 22 to work, cos it´s one move, maybe deserves a down grade, it´s far easier than voice of the beehive, and that´s benchmark 20 in my book... burly, call it 19 like gobble gobble yum yum
** Electricorp Production - best 22! and benchmark
Stamp Collection - not 22, 20?
** All I ever wanted was Dialysis - stiff
* Lights Out - awesome, little soft but still 22. Look for owls
* Short Circuit - a tiny bit scary, a tiny bit tough, one of the better 22s at paynes. Whole little globe wall is awesome... and don´t forget the 24s and 25s in the gully
** You’re either Dead or you’re Not - cool, a chance to jam! Second best 22.
Misery - horrible, no harder than 22, where exactly does it go, don´t do it
Lapsed Catholics - under-rated, this route deserves a star... the bottom, the middle, and gotta love the top with its big wobbly hold!!!
Tombstone Blues - never done it
* Big Sharks at Night - fair, soft if you´ve climbed at freyberg in wellington...
* Happy Motoring - hmmmmm... no comment....
The Immaculate Deception - could be 23?
* Granulated Chicken Booster - could be 21?
* The Beast from the Undergrowth - hmmm, the star....
** The Grounds the Limit - stiff 22, even with the extra bolt. Shame that it got retro-bolted though - would have been nice to preserve a little history, and there are enough user friendly 22s at paynes
* Flow Motion ?
Sexually Transmitted Pain relief ?
Van Clan ?
Fancy a shag on the beach ?
* Primal Scream - cool, no harder than 22
Jericho - adventure, perhaps 21, but don´t go changing the grade!
** Go With The Flow - benchmark
* Clutch-Cargo - dunno
Down to the River - good fun, shame it´s always dirty. And on the downstream side of the swimming hole (guidebook rant!)
Unknown - ?
Oogga Chaakka - ?
Soul shakedown party -?
Bicep d’Elan - wow!!! and scary!!! and don´t go changing anything about this climb..... it has enough bolts....
* Java Jive - fair
** Typhoon - typhoon tongue? easily as hard as 1080, maybe harder... 23?
American Spoon - 22, only a couple of hard moves, but they´re quite hard.
* The Great NZ Clobbering machine - 22, but hard to tell how direct to climb it, could be easier?
man you must be bored! :lol:
do you mean getting consistency within paynes/ golden bay or consistency with the rest of the south island /NZ as a whole?
Life is short, art is long, opportunity fleeting, experimenting dangerous, reasoning difficult