Flock Hill Access

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philderbeast
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I phoned the managers of Flock Hill Station to ask for permission to boulder at Flock Hill and was told that there were new lease holders. I managed to track down one of the new owners of the lease, Mark Fraundorfer, to discuss access for climbers. I have arranged with Mark to post this letter from him on a few bouldering web sites.

Flock Hill Limited
Administration
PO Box 56,
Tauranga,
New Zealand
Ph 07 578 2561 (ext 4)
Fax 07 578 4717
Mobile 0274 954 041
mrf@wave.co.nz
17 June 2004

Phil de Joux
Alpine Clubs
Christchurch.

Dear Phil,

Thanks for the phone call. We have owned the leasehold of Flock Hill for eighteen months and you are the first person with the courtesy to call in regard to climbing on the limestone of Flock Hill. On certain weekend days we have counted (by helicopter) up to 40 people on the property without our knowledge or permission.

Primarily because of legal advice in regard to our OSH liability, we have formulated rules of access to the property. If we charge for access or even accept a donation the person visiting the property is deemed a customer and our obligation becomes one of taking all practicable steps to protect the visitor from injury. Clearly as absentee owners we cannot do this. For this reason we have banned all vehicles from the property as all they do is cut up the tracks and damage tussock. Tracks cost us $18,500 this year just to bring back to a passable state for farming operations after multiple 4 WD and Motorbike treks and as we can't charge track fees we have no intention of having them ruined again. The only exception is the Highland Explorer who maintains the tracks they use and who have an OSH policy in place.

Access for climbing purposes in future must come from recognised organisations such as the Alpine Club you mentioned who will undertake to develop and provide us with an appropriate OSH policy and who will take responsibility for any climbers visiting the property under their auspices. This may include registering with us a list of approved members at the beginning of each year. We would still require our custodians, Terry Murdoch and Andrew Reid of Christchurch Helicopters, 03 359 0470 to be notified of any visits for recreational purposes. Fishing access to Winding stream is now by foot only so don't feel hard done by!

As you also know we have leased part of the property, including Flock Hill, for the filming of a major movie production. During preparatory work, now under way, and until the production is complete we cannot for obvious reasons allow any access to the property. Many of the preliminary markers put in for camera angles etc were pulled out by trespassers and security during filming will be very tight. Production should be complete by December at the latest and we will be enforcing Trespass Notices until then.

I am away until mid July but look forward to working with you to achieve a satisfactory outcome for you and your fellow climbers for the future.

Regards

Mark Fraundorfer

[Edited on 19/6/2004 by philderbeast]

[Edited on 19/6/2004 by philderbeast]

Anonymous

So what the hell's going on here? Can any of you legal eagles out there tell us exactly what the go is with landowners playing the OSH card? Is there some sort of precedent for recreational land users causing occupational safety and health issues for landowners in the past? Is this kind of legitimate? Or just a front for making money out of the backcountry?

Damn, that's a lot of questions - but if anyone has the low-down please tell me, for I would very much like to know.

philderbeast
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AFAIK the Dry Valley is included in the Flock Hill Lease.

BTW, the NZAC is acting on the letter from Mark Fraundorfer.

buff
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Found this article today...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3007209a10,00.html

Looks like it spells no more problems for flock hill, or anywhere else for that matter if the govt has their way.

JP
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man - sometime this country just drives me around the bend!!!!

"One farmer described how a visitor left a farm gate open, resulting in a $6500 bull falling over a cliff."

what???? um...call me a pedant but i suspect there were a few more links in the chain of causation here. like the bull walking over the cliff, just by way of example!

"People have left used tampons in our pump-shed, and people have had sex publicly and left behind used condoms"

well, maybe you leave your tampons up at flock hill buff but the only thing i've ever left up there is my shredded ego. oh, there was the time tony ward-holmes and his mates wandered over to a rock to find me dumping behind it but (a) that's another story and (b) i was more than 50ms from a toilet.

JP
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http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/hseact-text/hse4.shtml#41

see heading "When there is no duty to visitors"

buff
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So that means what to us commoners? :?

JP
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"People visiting a place of work under any other circumstances are owed no duty under section 16 by the controller. This includes people visiting for the purpose of recreation or leisure."

cragrat
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So therefore it would be unwise for a leasee to suggest a donation as in areas of Wanaka because it changes the duty of care?

chrisb
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"cragrat" wrote:
So therefore it would be unwise for a leasee to suggest a donation as in areas of Wanaka because it changes the duty of care?

I am not a lawyer, but it sure sounds like it. Is there any news with regards to Flock Hill? The NZAC where going to get in touch with the new managers but the last climber I read said something about no response as yet.

Chris

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cragrat
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J.P seems to think it might open soon... he can tell you more

count black
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Hi,

I am wondering whether i can climb at Flock Hill? I don't want to increase the problems but i would like to go. Does anyone know, half the people i have met at the Hill say it is open and half say it isn't?

Any ideas?

en
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Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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we had a similar issue here in wanaka
the new owners of phoebe crek station took exception to climbers on their land and closed access
wanaka rock club negotiated face to face with the new owners who outlined their concerns
we gave ours...
we negotiated a set of warning signs that we errected at the entry point and its been all good, so far (3 years)
the owners are from europe take access and OSH very seriously and seek any ways or means to mitigate their liability
easiest being of course an outright ban..err unless you pay a fee..
or clearly posted signage and publicity describing in excruciating detail the various hazards and the landowners lack of liability

anyway point is, in our experience face to face negotiation between the owners and an organisation (dosnt have to be nzac?) with an offer to meet the costs of signage etc worked well

good onya Phil for doing the hard work and hope there are more motivated folks out there who can lend a hand.... say how bout all those folks who publicise the place.....

cragrat
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It seems like the landowners are getting mixed and erroneous legal advice see the earlier OSH link. Charging for access is not in their interests as it changes the duty of care.

philderbeast
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Visit www.flockhill.info for access.

chrisb
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Nice one Phill. Something's up with the blog though and you can't leave comments. So do we park at the highway and walk from there?

Chris

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philderbeast
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Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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I added a little comment myself about parapet parking.

If you register with blogger you can post.

BTW, blogspot blogs can also be set to allow anonymous posts or to only allow blog members to post. Thought I should avoid the dreaded comment spam but I welcome feedback, post on.

Kahono
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It is really??

mikevincent
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does anyone know if we still have to email and get prior permission or have they set up visitors centre/sign in book? Would be good to be able to go without having to plan it in advance.

cragrat
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Nothing has changed except it is closed till Dec 25th (supposed lambing)